Healing PTSD in Nursing with Jill Brandl

Jill Brandl was an RN who worked to become a Holistic Psych Mental Health Nurse Practitioner. Despite her education in mental health, Jill needed help with her own burnout from her years in healthcare, as well as dealing with trauma outside of her job. After what she describes as “total burnout”, Jill decided it was time to put herself first and begin the journey to a more healthy life. She stepped away from her job to focus on helping herself so she could continue to help others.

Jill says that the mental health of nurses is her passion now. She says that step one to healing is admitting that things have to change and not allowing shame to get in the way of asking for help. Nurses have been taught to think that burnout just goes with the territory and we should just suck it up and move through the exhaustion and difficulty of caring for others. Jill tells us that we must set boundaries, know our worth as people, and not get wrapped up in how we may be perceived if we put ourselves first.

Jill now offers help to nurses who are going through burnout or mental health issues. She utilizes evidence-based modalities to help others begin to heal themselves. Jill helps others by using mind-body healing and neuroscience-based flow-state coaching. She also focuses on the root cause of mental health, so that clients can make lasting changes.

ABOUT JILL

Jill Brandl is a holistic psychiatric nurse practitioner, breathwork facilitator, yoga instructor, and hypnotherapist who supports healthcare professionals in healing from chronic stress, overwhelm, and burnout to create a life of peace and joy. Having navigated her own severe burnout and recovery, she now offers the same evidence-based and highly impactful modalities that helped her on her own healing journey. She offers group healing immersions and private healing sessions and delights in supporting other healthcare professionals.

LINKS

  • Beth Quaas: Hello everyone and welcome back to Don't Eat Your Young. I'm your host, Beth Quass. Today

    we have Jill Brandl on the show. She's been an RN for many years, working mainly in psych

    mental health, which took her to move her career into a different path. So I'm excited

    to have her today to talk about some of the things she's used to help herself get through

    some tough times and hopefully maybe help out you as well. I'd like to welcome Jill to the show.

    Hi, Jill. I'm so happy to have you on the show today.

    Jill Brandl: Hi, Beth. I'm so glad to be here. Tell

    us a little bit about yourself and your nursing journey. Absolutely. So my name is Jill Brandle.

    I'm a holistic psychiatric nurse practitioner, and my nursing journey started out. I worked 15

    years as a psychiatric nurse in a major medical center as a registered nurse. After doing that

    for about 15 years, I had gone back to school and became a psychiatric nurse practitioner,

    and from there I worked in a outpatient clinic for about seven years. And then what happened

    was the most spectacular burnout that can ever happen, and I had a burnout. So I had a really

    serious burnout that I think started in around 2020 and culminated in 2021 with me actually

    leaving my job and then starting up a private practice.

    Beth Quaas: And I can so relate to everything that you've gone through because I've been there myself, and I think a lot of people that listen

    to the show can also relate. What do you think brought you to that point? Was it a culmination

    of all those years? Was it the job? Was it the population?

    Yeah, I think looking back,

    Jill Brandl: it was a lot of factors. I know that when I was in it, I really wanted to place all of the blame

    on the medical system. And there are definitely so many problems with the medical system. And

    I do not dispute that. That is very real, and that is something that nurses are dealing with

    every day, all of the time that they're spending working. So that is very real, and I can speak

    to some of that too. But I think in retrospect, and after I was able to step away from that,

    what I was actually able to see was that all of my own stress and all of my own trauma,

    which started back in childhood really, was part of the underlying factor as well. And so

    what I've come to understand is that when people have this combination of childhood trauma or

    other traumas, even workplace traumas as a nurse, and then we're also dealing on top of that

    with the stressors of the profession, it really can create kind of the perfect recipe for

    experiencing severe burnout.

    Beth Quaas: I agree. And I think we've probably both seen it. Well,

    we've seen it in ourselves. We see it in our colleagues. I see it in students coming in.

    This stress happens way before you get out and start working as a licensed nurse anywhere.

    What do you think? Is there anything we can do earlier on, do you think, to help nurses

    set themselves up for success?

    Jill Brandl: Absolutely. I think that anybody who's going into some kind

    of healthcare role, healthcare profession, or even a caregiving role, it would be very healthy and very valuable to take some time to examine why we are going into these professions or why we are

    maybe choosing to do the work that we do, because it's important work. It's needed work. It's good

    work in the sense that I know that the people who go into these professions, including you and I,

    Beth, are very often very caring and loving people. However, a lot of times people, including myself,

    initially are drawn to those professions sometimes for subconscious reasons in that we are maybe

    looking to find validation in that job, in that profession. For example, a feeling of being needed,

    a feeling of achievement, a feeling of self-worth. And some of those things can be tied to childhood

    traumas where we are then subconsciously going into our work looking to get those needs met.

    And so doing that work, doing some of the healing work beforehand so that we have the opportunity

    to regulate our nervous systems and go into work knowing how to set boundaries, knowing our worth,

    knowing that we are worthy of being treated well and having safety and having a voice and those

    things can go such a long way. There is so much to talk about here and I know you've created

    a way to help people through all of this. When we talk about nurses needing an identity, and I know

    that's true, people identify with their profession oftentimes. Talk a little bit more about that. I

    know you've touched on it. Talk a little bit more about how do we get there?

    That is so good, Beth. I mean, when I think back about how I felt and how I was even working in

    the major medical center, both as an RN and then for years as an outpatient psychiatric nurse

    practitioner, I really look back and I feel like, wow, a lot of that was my identity.

    And because of that, I would tell myself stories like, well, this is the profession I chose,

    this is the work I do, so of course I'm going to come home and be exhausted and not feel like I

    have energy or time to spend with my family, with my loved ones. Of course, it's just sort of like,

    it just goes with the territory. I'm a nurse, therefore, yes, I'm going to be exhausted,

    traumatized, potentially on the verge of burnout off and on over the years, and sort of like,

    this is just what it is. This is just how it is, part of my identity. And I think that we can,

    as nurses and as healthcare professionals, just get very wrapped up in like, this is my identity,

    this is what gives me worth, this is what gives me a sense of value and importance in the world.

    And then because of that, all of the ways that it affects us in the rest of our life,

    we sort of just take it like, well, this is how it's got to be.

    Oh, you hit the nail on that. If I could have all those evenings of exhaustion back and

    we sit and you're right, we think that's just how it is and you trudge through each day,

    you trudge through each day. Tell us how it could be, how it should be.

    Oh, how it could be, how it should be. So I had to learn this, what I will call the hard way.

    I did not just somehow flip a switch in my head and say, you know what, I'm tired of living this

    way. I'm going to choose a different way because I want to feel good. It took me getting totally

    burned out and basically unable to function anymore before I was then able to look inside

    and do the inner work of saying, wait a minute, is this really all there is to life as a health

    care worker? And now it's been about a year and a half since I left that role. I want to say the

    research shows it takes on average three years to recover from burnout. And so I would say for me,

    that's been, it has taken a while and now truly I feel better than I ever have in my life.

    I have so much joy. I have so much peace. My nervous system is regulated. I love myself.

    I know my worth and I just feel so amazing most days that if somebody would have told me a year

    and a half ago that I could feel as good as I do now, I would not have believed them.

    That is so fantastic. I'm so glad you've gotten to that point. And I know you said it wasn't like

    flipping a switch. I think for me, I would look at the reaction from my coworkers on what I was

    saying and how they were reacting. And I felt them pulling back because I was so cynical,

    so angry. So I just didn't want to be there anymore. And I could watch them

    pull away from me. And that's when I thought, this isn't me. This isn't who I am or who I want to be.

    So that's how I think I got to where I needed to make the switch.

    Absolutely. And talking about mental health, the mental health of nurses has become a tremendous

    passion of mine now. It's one of those turn your pain into your purpose things.

    And I know I too felt that way when I was in burnout. I felt so irritated and angry and

    frustrated with the medical system. And I just wanted to be like, I am just a cog in a wheel.

    And this system is just destroying my life and all of this stuff. And while some of that

    can be true and is true in the sense that the system is very dysfunctional and broken

    and causes harm to nurses. And I believe that what I also know now is there was a big level

    of personal responsibility that at the time I wasn't able to or willing to face.

    It is a hard realization to come to because you know it's going to change your whole life.

    Yeah, it has to. You can't continue doing the same thing and think that it's going to get better

    if you don't make some choices to change as well. So what do you think is step one?

    Yeah, step one is just what you were saying, Beth. It's so true. It's like we have to actually just

    stop and take stock of where we are and say, you know what, obviously waiting it out isn't working.

    Obviously taking a few extra days off here and there isn't working. Clearly repeating my same

    old habits of going home after work and eating frozen pizza and laying on the couch until bedtime

    watching Netflix isn't working. But boy is that fun some days. Some days it's fun and it's okay.

    It's fun and it's okay. Yeah and you know I think even one of the biggest points I

    think was like just blaming everything and everybody else for the way I was living my life

    also wasn't working. And so the first step is getting real and getting honest with ourselves

    and that's what I had to do. I had to get real. I had to get honest and I had to say to myself

    if it's meant to be it's up to me and I'm the only one who can change my life and I have to choose.

    That is so important for people to know it's a choice. You can do it or you can stay and then

    you have to deal with that as well. Have you ever had anybody ask you, so I'm going to ask you,

    as a psych mental health nurse couldn't you heal yourself?

    Yeah that's such a good question because that's what I told myself. I thought well I know this.

    Like I have a master's degree in psychiatric nursing. I have all of the clinical knowledge.

    I have clinical experience. I'm great at my job but the thing was that knowing it wasn't the same

    as living it and there was so much shame there. I just really want to talk about for a moment the

    shame that goes on when it comes to us as nurses discussing our mental health or even just

    speaking about it to somebody else and I feel like that is also one of the first steps is to be okay

    with admitting that we too even though we are in a caregiving profession we too need and deserve

    support and there is absolutely nothing shameful about that.

    So well said. I'm hoping that the more we talk about it the easier it will get for people to

    talk but boy when you're in a busy shift and you're dealing with patients dying and almost

    dying and not doing well and you're making some real big decisions to help them and then you have

    to go into the next room and pretend that didn't happen. That has to take a toll on people.

    It absolutely does. There is a tremendous amount of secondary trauma, vicarious trauma that goes on

    in the nursing profession and I think you know and I had kind of this mindset as well for years of

    like well shoot I can handle anything. I've seen it all. I've done it all. Like when I was would

    work as the charge nurse and we would have these violent patients and all of these serious

    situations going on the other nurses would just say to me like Jill you are just unflappable.

    You're so calm and it's like yes we do have to kind of shut it off when we are at work but the

    problem was I never turned it back on and processed the emotion. I never felt the emotion. I never

    went in and allowed myself to release the stress and the trauma and to heal from those experiences

    that I had and you know a 10-minute little conference in the bedroom after one of those

    incidents isn't enough to process the enormous emotional and psychological toll that these

    experiences have on our nervous systems.

    I want to hear more about that because I'm kind of a science geek but the violence is just escalating

    all across health care and it seems like nurses and nurses aides and those in the rooms the most

    often are the ones that are really taking the brunt of that. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I really want

    to talk for a moment about PTSD about post-traumatic stress disorder because there is no doubt in my

    mind that nurses are suffering from that. In fact there is research to show that health care workers

    have rates of PTSD equal to people who have been in combat military because here's the thing when

    we are in those environments and we are fearful for our safety, we are fearful for our lives,

    we are worried that we may get attacked, killed, you know even just getting yelled at, spit on,

    bodily fluids thrown like all of these things and then you know there is the double the

    adding insult to injury because unfortunately what I hear from so many nurses and what I experienced

    as well in my career is that whenever something goes wrong whenever a patient hurts us then we are

    asked what we could have done differently to prevent that from happening and we don't have

    the safeguards in place as far as having enough staff, as far as having enough protection to

    keep ourselves safe. So our nervous systems are truly in a state where we are fearing for our safety

    almost every time we go to work and we don't just turn that off when we go home.

    That hypervigilance, that being easily startled, trouble sleeping, nightmares, flashbacks,

    we feel it in our bodies. I am so glad you said that and I'm sure people listening will

    think the same thing. Yeah we do go through that, that is real. It is not something made up,

    it's not on a tv show that is real and I have been as a manager in a facility where HR,

    we do a root cause analysis for whatever happened and HR would come in and the first question that

    was asked of that nurse was what could you have done differently? That places blame on someone

    that was the victim in my mind. Absolutely, it absolutely does and so here's the thing too,

    when these kind of experiences happen not only as nurses are we dealing with the trauma and the

    acute stress response of what's just happened but then we are also dealing with all of our

    childhood trauma getting activated from previous experiences we may have had growing up where we

    felt potentially like our needs don't matter, we aren't worthy, we are a burden to people,

    we should just keep quiet, you know all of those kind of things that can be childhood trauma from

    the way that the adults in our lives treated us or behaved around us and so those traumas and

    triggers are getting activated on top of the current stressor and then we are just sort of like

    well we just go home and you know like it's just another day at the office so to speak.

    Yeah well and I know you've told us what step one is, now what are you doing? What have you

    done to heal yourself and what are you doing to help other people? That's such a good question

    and I love to talk about this. One of the reasons I really love to talk about this of how I've

    managed to be able to heal myself and by heal myself I don't mean to say that I did it alone

    because to heal myself I asked for help, I received support, I went to therapy and I'll speak about

    that. The first thing I did was you know getting real with myself and then the second thing was

    that I started going to therapy, I allowed myself to receive support, I allowed myself to be human,

    I allowed myself to be witnessed in my experiences and receive support and I do believe that it's

    important to seek out somebody who can provide trauma specific support and to look at things

    that are considered mind body modalities that are evidence-based for trauma treatment.

    So I would say a couple of the things that have helped me quite a bit are there's a therapy

    modality called accelerated resolution therapy which uses eye movements to help release trauma

    from the body that has been tremendously helpful to me. In fact I trained in it and I now offer it

    to people and then just things like hypnotherapy, breath work, getting into the physical body

    because we talked about this earlier Beth that as nurses we can be so good at just shutting it all

    off and in order to access all of that kind of trapped emotional energy we need to go into the

    body. Oftentimes just talking about it isn't enough, we need to move that emotional energy

    out of the body so that we can release it and restore ourselves to a healthy balanced nervous

    system. How does that work on the nervous system? Yeah so what it does is it allows us to so the

    eye movements they're bilateral movements moving the eyes left and right and what that does is it

    creates a sense of calm and nervous system regulation in the brain by accessing different

    parts of the brain than talk therapy alone will access. And so as we are recalling the potentially

    the traumatic memories the incidents that have contributed to the trauma response in the body

    we can move those eyes back and forth and follow a sequence of processing that helps calm the brain

    and calm the body and the nervous system as we are recalling the event so that at the end of

    the session we are able to then recall the event in a factual way without that nervous system

    response going over the top. That's incredible to me the body's an amazing thing. I give drugs for

    a living so I know what drugs do to the body and we talked about this before you can change the

    chemistry in your brain and in your body without the use of drugs talk a little bit about that.

    Yes you absolutely can so you know I will say that when I was in the midst of my burnout

    Beth and I know I shared this with you that at one point I was on five different medications to

    help my mental health. I was on antidepressant medication, ADHD medication, anxiety meds, sleep

    meds when I was really in the thick of my burnout and those did not do anything to

    heal what was going on underneath. They did not do anything to heal the underlying trauma. Now I

    am not saying that there's anything wrong with medications. Certainly medications can help people

    when they are really needing that extra layer of support and on top of that we've got to be willing

    to do the deeper work to heal these things at the root cause so that they don't keep showing up as

    symptoms over the years because it just can keep coming back if we don't deal with the root cause.

    So creating safety in the body and creating safety in the nervous system by dealing with the traumas

    at the root cause is really what we want to do in order to change the way the nervous system is

    functioning and essentially to shut down all of those alarm bells that are going off in our

    fight or flight, in our fear centers, the amygdala, all of the cortisol release, like all of the

    hormonal things that go on in a flood when we feel triggered into a trauma response.

    That will be so good for people to hear because I did not know any of this until I started this

    podcast and meeting people like you, that was even a thing. You know, you tradition, you go in,

    you tell them you are depressed or you're having anxiety and the first thing most people think of

    is you're going to be put on a medication. How's that going to affect me? But by healing without

    but by healing without those medications and taming those hormones that are not good in

    and of themselves if they're in high levels in the body is amazing to me. So what you're doing

    is just, I think something so many people need to learn about.

    Absolutely and I feel that I want to keep talking about this and I will keep talking about this

    because when I was going through it, I was Googling and searching online and looking for

    help and support and Googling things like nurse burnout and nurse mental health issues and all of

    this stuff and I really wasn't finding anything that was made just for nurses who are going through

    this. And so because of that, I created that community and I'm so excited. I'd love to share

    that with you, Beth, and tell you what I'm creating here. Go ahead, I want to hear about it.

    Yeah, so it's called Bodacious Radiance Academy and it's a six-month mind-body healing immersion

    specifically for nurses and so during this six-month healing immersion, we'll be meeting

    virtually and I'll be leading the participants through a process to help them heal themselves

    from whatever it is that's going on in their lives. We'll be doing things like hypnotherapy,

    breath work, guided meditations, yoga. I will also be offering individual healing sessions with each

    participant as part of that package deal and I think one of the biggest benefits of doing this

    in community, so it'll be a private virtual community that we'll meet on Zoom, is that other

    people can share their stories with one another and shame cannot live when we speak our truth

    and it is going to be so powerful to witness the healing of the other nurses in the group

    in this community because oftentimes when one heals, we all heal. When one tells her story

    and works on healing that, everyone else almost always goes, oh my gosh, me too, I can so relate

    to what's going on and by letting ourselves be seen and held in community, there is tremendous

    healing power in that and I'm just so excited to launch that. It'll be starting

    at the start of the year. Enrollment is opening in a couple of weeks and it is going to be truly

    life-changing. I cannot wait to hear more about it because I think so many people need it and

    what I would love to see in the future is hospitals covering those costs and paying for that or

    insurance, it doesn't matter. Do you think that will ever happen? I would love to see that happen.

    I would love to see that happen because nurses deserve that. Nurses deserve to work in environments

    where they feel safe, where they feel like they're getting their medical needs met, including their

    mental health needs because there is still such a stigma and such a disconnect when it comes to

    seeking out and receiving mental health support and it feels like one of my life's work projects

    to speak about this and to continue to normalize that our brain is part of the body just like every

    other part and it too needs support and needs to receive care in order to function in a healthy way.

    That brings me to a question. Do you ever have someone or have you had or

    that says I really love my job? I love the unit I work on. It's toxic but I love what I do.

    Can people heal and learn to take care of themselves while still working in that space?

    Yeah, so what I find is that as we can heal our trauma, regardless of how much we do or don't like

    our job and I think sometimes it can be we feel pretty okay about it for a while and then for a

    while it's like oh this is just awful and then it kind of ebbs and flows. At least that was my

    experience over the years but even for somebody who feels largely that they enjoy their job,

    we want to prevent burnout. We want to teach all of these skills so that people can truly

    take care of themselves and have a deeper understanding of how their life experiences

    even before becoming a nurse may impact the way that their mental health journey goes over time.

    Journey goes over time and so even being proactive before disaster strikes, before people

    hopefully never get as burned out as I was, although I know that they're out there,

    we don't have to wait until we can barely get out of bed and barely function before we allow

    ourselves to receive some support. So whether people identify with being deeply burned out

    as I was or maybe just identifying that they're living in chronic stress, receiving support is

    useful. What you're doing is I think going to benefit so many people and it's good to hear that

    people don't have to change everything to start healing themselves. Yeah absolutely I mean because

    I know there are a lot of nurses out there who do love the profession and love the work

    and it's the environment, it's the challenges of the environment that are taking their toll and so

    I think one of the biggest benefits and takeaways from doing a program like the one that I'm offering

    is getting a sense of clarity because when we are in chronic stress it's very hard to be clear

    about our goals and dreams in life, about you know where we're going in life because truly often we

    are simply in survival mode and when we're just in survival mode day to day and all we're looking at

    is how can I get through this shift or how can I get through this week so I can get to my days off,

    that's survival mode and I look back I was in that for decades, I really was and what I want

    to empower people to do is go beyond survival mode and from just surviving to thriving.

    I love that. Is there a time frame, is everyone individual in how they heal and move on?

    Yeah I would say so. I think some people like, well I guess like me, I waited to

    seek help until I just couldn't go anymore. I waited until the burnout really just kind of took me

    down to the bottom of the depths of despair and hopelessness and shame and misery

    and that will be some people, some of the listeners may identify with feeling that way.

    If you are that person I just want to tell you there is hope to be had, this is not your fault,

    you can heal from this and you have to choose, okay you've got to choose. Sending those people

    so much love because that's such a painful place to be. Other people may realize maybe they see

    their co-workers kind of thrashing and sinking and realize like oh gosh like maybe I don't want to

    kind of let it get to that point. I think I'll reach out and get some support and

    and get some clarity on how I can live my fullest life before it gets to the point where I can't

    function and that takes a certain boldness and bravery. The name I chose for this

    program that I'm releasing, the Bodacious Radiance Academy, so bodacious meaning just

    boldly audacious. I think it takes a certain audacity to kind of say like hey I love myself,

    I am worth it, I am going to speak out, I am going to be true to me, I'm going to kind of go

    against the grain in some way and boldly go after joy in my life and so that's why the name bodacious

    and it's also a little bit of a nod to like the mind-body connection because I think

    sometimes when we think of bodacious we think of like the body you know and really when we do the

    mind-body healing that's where those deep benefits come from. So yeah, there will be all types of

    people, all people on different paths and different steps on their journey and I feel that anyone and

    everyone can benefit from coming into that space to heal. I would like to see every nurse everywhere

    have you know the ability to go through that and take care of themselves from the beginning

    all the way through their careers. Absolutely, I think the thing that I want to say to the listeners

    is you are so much more than your profession, you are so much more than your profession,

    you can have so much joy in your life, you can have fun, you can be in love with life,

    you can be healthy mind, body and spirit and even if you're not hating your job and you're

    thinking well what's the big deal? Yeah, nursing's hard but like I'm doing okay.

    Here's the thing, sometimes we can fool ourselves, we can think we're doing okay and we may be

    doing amazing at work. I mean many nurses it's like you can go and do amazing work and crush it

    during your shift but what is the rest of your life looking like? What are your relationships

    looking like? What is your physical health looking like? What are the goals that you

    keep telling yourself you're going to go after because you know they will bring you joy

    and fulfillment but it's just not happening because you don't have the energy. So those

    are some of the things that we can also look at because I want to see nurses loving their life

    as a whole, not just leaving the rest of their life with kind of the scraps of their energy

    which is what I did for decades. Yeah at the end of the day if there's nothing left it's hard to

    take care of yourself and the important people around you. I totally agree with that.

    So where can people find you? Yes so my website is jillbrandl.com that's j-i-l-l-b-r-a-n-d-l.com.

    My Instagram is jillbrandl.aprn and my Facebook as well. So I have a Facebook, I have Instagram,

    I have my website and I just want to create a sense of connection and community out there

    for those who are looking for it. I think that is incredible. I'm going to find that myself so I can

    start listening to you more. I think what you're doing is just amazing and I hope so many people

    come and find you that are that need help, that want to change, that want to feel better because

    I think you are the real deal. Thank you Beth. I appreciate that. It really is again one of those

    my pain became my purpose and I wanted to mention too that I also do individual sessions with people.

    I do individual one-on-one therapy healing and trauma healing and other and even coaching and

    things like that for people who are looking for that as well as this group container that I

    described and I'm so excited to bring my combination of my lived experience and that those

    hard-earned lived experiences through my own severe burnout and combine that with my clinical

    expertise as a psychiatric nurse practitioner. I really feel that it's the best of both worlds

    also combined with a good sense of humor. That's important too. I know laughing is good.

    Yes. As sad as I am that you had to go through all that I really think you will

    help others because of that. I feel that too. I feel that I would have never said this a year

    or two ago when I was in it but I truly am grateful for the lessons I have learned through

    this experience. It was very hard. It was one of the hardest periods I have ever gone through in

    my life and it lasted a long time but now that I am on the other side of it I truly am grateful

    for those lessons because I would not be who I am today without it and I am absolutely loving life.

    It actually shook me awake. It awakened me. It opened my eyes. It expanded my heart. It made me

    see that life does not have to be that way and I can promise you Beth I will never go back to that

    way of life again and I'm grateful for those lessons. I'm excited for the people that can

    find you and after they talk to you they can say the same thing you know however long it takes.

    Absolutely. Jill thank you so much for coming on today. I want to have you back after you start

    doing this for a while and bringing these communities together and I want you to tell us

    how it's going. I would absolutely love that. I'm so excited to share. Thank you. Thanks for

    being here today. Thanks for having me Beth. I just want to say thanks again to Jill for being

    on the show. The recognition that she brings to the mental health issues going on in nursing right

    now especially talking about PTSD that I think we know a lot of people are going through in our

    current state in our profession so I appreciate her coming on and bringing that up and if you want

    to find Jill please look in the show notes and you'll find all of her contact information there.

    I hope all of you are doing well and be safe out there.

    Beth Quaas: Hello everyone and welcome back to Don't Eat Your Young. I'm your host, Beth Quass. Today

    we have Jill Brandl on the show. She's been an RN for many years, working mainly in psych

    mental health, which took her to move her career into a different path. So I'm excited

    to have her today to talk about some of the things she's used to help herself get through

    some tough times and hopefully maybe help out you as well. I'd like to welcome Jill to the show.

    Hi, Jill. I'm so happy to have you on the show today.

    Jill Brandl: Hi, Beth. I'm so glad to be here. Tell

    us a little bit about yourself and your nursing journey. Absolutely. So my name is Jill Brandle.

    I'm a holistic psychiatric nurse practitioner, and my nursing journey started out. I worked 15

    years as a psychiatric nurse in a major medical center as a registered nurse. After doing that

    for about 15 years, I had gone back to school and became a psychiatric nurse practitioner,

    and from there I worked in a outpatient clinic for about seven years. And then what happened

    was the most spectacular burnout that can ever happen, and I had a burnout. So I had a really

    serious burnout that I think started in around 2020 and culminated in 2021 with me actually

    leaving my job and then starting up a private practice.

    Beth Quaas: And I can so relate to everything that you've gone through because I've been there myself, and I think a lot of people that listen

    to the show can also relate. What do you think brought you to that point? Was it a culmination

    of all those years? Was it the job? Was it the population?

    Yeah, I think looking back,

    Jill Brandl: it was a lot of factors. I know that when I was in it, I really wanted to place all of the blame

    on the medical system. And there are definitely so many problems with the medical system. And

    I do not dispute that. That is very real, and that is something that nurses are dealing with

    every day, all of the time that they're spending working. So that is very real, and I can speak

    to some of that too. But I think in retrospect, and after I was able to step away from that,

    what I was actually able to see was that all of my own stress and all of my own trauma,

    which started back in childhood really, was part of the underlying factor as well. And so

    what I've come to understand is that when people have this combination of childhood trauma or

    other traumas, even workplace traumas as a nurse, and then we're also dealing on top of that

    with the stressors of the profession, it really can create kind of the perfect recipe for

    experiencing severe burnout.

    Beth Quaas: I agree. And I think we've probably both seen it. Well,

    we've seen it in ourselves. We see it in our colleagues. I see it in students coming in.

    This stress happens way before you get out and start working as a licensed nurse anywhere.

    What do you think? Is there anything we can do earlier on, do you think, to help nurses

    set themselves up for success?

    Jill Brandl: Absolutely. I think that anybody who's going into some kind

    of healthcare role, healthcare profession, or even a caregiving role, it would be very healthy and very valuable to take some time to examine why we are going into these professions or why we are

    maybe choosing to do the work that we do, because it's important work. It's needed work. It's good

    work in the sense that I know that the people who go into these professions, including you and I,

    Beth, are very often very caring and loving people. However, a lot of times people, including myself,

    initially are drawn to those professions sometimes for subconscious reasons in that we are maybe

    looking to find validation in that job, in that profession. For example, a feeling of being needed,

    a feeling of achievement, a feeling of self-worth. And some of those things can be tied to childhood

    traumas where we are then subconsciously going into our work looking to get those needs met.

    And so doing that work, doing some of the healing work beforehand so that we have the opportunity

    to regulate our nervous systems and go into work knowing how to set boundaries, knowing our worth,

    knowing that we are worthy of being treated well and having safety and having a voice and those

    things can go such a long way. There is so much to talk about here and I know you've created

    a way to help people through all of this. When we talk about nurses needing an identity, and I know

    that's true, people identify with their profession oftentimes. Talk a little bit more about that. I

    know you've touched on it. Talk a little bit more about how do we get there?

    That is so good, Beth. I mean, when I think back about how I felt and how I was even working in

    the major medical center, both as an RN and then for years as an outpatient psychiatric nurse

    practitioner, I really look back and I feel like, wow, a lot of that was my identity.

    And because of that, I would tell myself stories like, well, this is the profession I chose,

    this is the work I do, so of course I'm going to come home and be exhausted and not feel like I

    have energy or time to spend with my family, with my loved ones. Of course, it's just sort of like,

    it just goes with the territory. I'm a nurse, therefore, yes, I'm going to be exhausted,

    traumatized, potentially on the verge of burnout off and on over the years, and sort of like,

    this is just what it is. This is just how it is, part of my identity. And I think that we can,

    as nurses and as healthcare professionals, just get very wrapped up in like, this is my identity,

    this is what gives me worth, this is what gives me a sense of value and importance in the world.

    And then because of that, all of the ways that it affects us in the rest of our life,

    we sort of just take it like, well, this is how it's got to be.

    Oh, you hit the nail on that. If I could have all those evenings of exhaustion back and

    we sit and you're right, we think that's just how it is and you trudge through each day,

    you trudge through each day. Tell us how it could be, how it should be.

    Oh, how it could be, how it should be. So I had to learn this, what I will call the hard way.

    I did not just somehow flip a switch in my head and say, you know what, I'm tired of living this

    way. I'm going to choose a different way because I want to feel good. It took me getting totally

    burned out and basically unable to function anymore before I was then able to look inside

    and do the inner work of saying, wait a minute, is this really all there is to life as a health

    care worker? And now it's been about a year and a half since I left that role. I want to say the

    research shows it takes on average three years to recover from burnout. And so I would say for me,

    that's been, it has taken a while and now truly I feel better than I ever have in my life.

    I have so much joy. I have so much peace. My nervous system is regulated. I love myself.

    I know my worth and I just feel so amazing most days that if somebody would have told me a year

    and a half ago that I could feel as good as I do now, I would not have believed them.

    That is so fantastic. I'm so glad you've gotten to that point. And I know you said it wasn't like

    flipping a switch. I think for me, I would look at the reaction from my coworkers on what I was

    saying and how they were reacting. And I felt them pulling back because I was so cynical,

    so angry. So I just didn't want to be there anymore. And I could watch them

    pull away from me. And that's when I thought, this isn't me. This isn't who I am or who I want to be.

    So that's how I think I got to where I needed to make the switch.

    Absolutely. And talking about mental health, the mental health of nurses has become a tremendous

    passion of mine now. It's one of those turn your pain into your purpose things.

    And I know I too felt that way when I was in burnout. I felt so irritated and angry and

    frustrated with the medical system. And I just wanted to be like, I am just a cog in a wheel.

    And this system is just destroying my life and all of this stuff. And while some of that

    can be true and is true in the sense that the system is very dysfunctional and broken

    and causes harm to nurses. And I believe that what I also know now is there was a big level

    of personal responsibility that at the time I wasn't able to or willing to face.

    It is a hard realization to come to because you know it's going to change your whole life.

    Yeah, it has to. You can't continue doing the same thing and think that it's going to get better

    if you don't make some choices to change as well. So what do you think is step one?

    Yeah, step one is just what you were saying, Beth. It's so true. It's like we have to actually just

    stop and take stock of where we are and say, you know what, obviously waiting it out isn't working.

    Obviously taking a few extra days off here and there isn't working. Clearly repeating my same

    old habits of going home after work and eating frozen pizza and laying on the couch until bedtime

    watching Netflix isn't working. But boy is that fun some days. Some days it's fun and it's okay.

    It's fun and it's okay. Yeah and you know I think even one of the biggest points I

    think was like just blaming everything and everybody else for the way I was living my life

    also wasn't working. And so the first step is getting real and getting honest with ourselves

    and that's what I had to do. I had to get real. I had to get honest and I had to say to myself

    if it's meant to be it's up to me and I'm the only one who can change my life and I have to choose.

    That is so important for people to know it's a choice. You can do it or you can stay and then

    you have to deal with that as well. Have you ever had anybody ask you, so I'm going to ask you,

    as a psych mental health nurse couldn't you heal yourself?

    Yeah that's such a good question because that's what I told myself. I thought well I know this.

    Like I have a master's degree in psychiatric nursing. I have all of the clinical knowledge.

    I have clinical experience. I'm great at my job but the thing was that knowing it wasn't the same

    as living it and there was so much shame there. I just really want to talk about for a moment the

    shame that goes on when it comes to us as nurses discussing our mental health or even just

    speaking about it to somebody else and I feel like that is also one of the first steps is to be okay

    with admitting that we too even though we are in a caregiving profession we too need and deserve

    support and there is absolutely nothing shameful about that.

    So well said. I'm hoping that the more we talk about it the easier it will get for people to

    talk but boy when you're in a busy shift and you're dealing with patients dying and almost

    dying and not doing well and you're making some real big decisions to help them and then you have

    to go into the next room and pretend that didn't happen. That has to take a toll on people.

    It absolutely does. There is a tremendous amount of secondary trauma, vicarious trauma that goes on

    in the nursing profession and I think you know and I had kind of this mindset as well for years of

    like well shoot I can handle anything. I've seen it all. I've done it all. Like when I was would

    work as the charge nurse and we would have these violent patients and all of these serious

    situations going on the other nurses would just say to me like Jill you are just unflappable.

    You're so calm and it's like yes we do have to kind of shut it off when we are at work but the

    problem was I never turned it back on and processed the emotion. I never felt the emotion. I never

    went in and allowed myself to release the stress and the trauma and to heal from those experiences

    that I had and you know a 10-minute little conference in the bedroom after one of those

    incidents isn't enough to process the enormous emotional and psychological toll that these

    experiences have on our nervous systems.

    I want to hear more about that because I'm kind of a science geek but the violence is just escalating

    all across health care and it seems like nurses and nurses aides and those in the rooms the most

    often are the ones that are really taking the brunt of that. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I really want

    to talk for a moment about PTSD about post-traumatic stress disorder because there is no doubt in my

    mind that nurses are suffering from that. In fact there is research to show that health care workers

    have rates of PTSD equal to people who have been in combat military because here's the thing when

    we are in those environments and we are fearful for our safety, we are fearful for our lives,

    we are worried that we may get attacked, killed, you know even just getting yelled at, spit on,

    bodily fluids thrown like all of these things and then you know there is the double the

    adding insult to injury because unfortunately what I hear from so many nurses and what I experienced

    as well in my career is that whenever something goes wrong whenever a patient hurts us then we are

    asked what we could have done differently to prevent that from happening and we don't have

    the safeguards in place as far as having enough staff, as far as having enough protection to

    keep ourselves safe. So our nervous systems are truly in a state where we are fearing for our safety

    almost every time we go to work and we don't just turn that off when we go home.

    That hypervigilance, that being easily startled, trouble sleeping, nightmares, flashbacks,

    we feel it in our bodies. I am so glad you said that and I'm sure people listening will

    think the same thing. Yeah we do go through that, that is real. It is not something made up,

    it's not on a tv show that is real and I have been as a manager in a facility where HR,

    we do a root cause analysis for whatever happened and HR would come in and the first question that

    was asked of that nurse was what could you have done differently? That places blame on someone

    that was the victim in my mind. Absolutely, it absolutely does and so here's the thing too,

    when these kind of experiences happen not only as nurses are we dealing with the trauma and the

    acute stress response of what's just happened but then we are also dealing with all of our

    childhood trauma getting activated from previous experiences we may have had growing up where we

    felt potentially like our needs don't matter, we aren't worthy, we are a burden to people,

    we should just keep quiet, you know all of those kind of things that can be childhood trauma from

    the way that the adults in our lives treated us or behaved around us and so those traumas and

    triggers are getting activated on top of the current stressor and then we are just sort of like

    well we just go home and you know like it's just another day at the office so to speak.

    Yeah well and I know you've told us what step one is, now what are you doing? What have you

    done to heal yourself and what are you doing to help other people? That's such a good question

    and I love to talk about this. One of the reasons I really love to talk about this of how I've

    managed to be able to heal myself and by heal myself I don't mean to say that I did it alone

    because to heal myself I asked for help, I received support, I went to therapy and I'll speak about

    that. The first thing I did was you know getting real with myself and then the second thing was

    that I started going to therapy, I allowed myself to receive support, I allowed myself to be human,

    I allowed myself to be witnessed in my experiences and receive support and I do believe that it's

    important to seek out somebody who can provide trauma specific support and to look at things

    that are considered mind body modalities that are evidence-based for trauma treatment.

    So I would say a couple of the things that have helped me quite a bit are there's a therapy

    modality called accelerated resolution therapy which uses eye movements to help release trauma

    from the body that has been tremendously helpful to me. In fact I trained in it and I now offer it

    to people and then just things like hypnotherapy, breath work, getting into the physical body

    because we talked about this earlier Beth that as nurses we can be so good at just shutting it all

    off and in order to access all of that kind of trapped emotional energy we need to go into the

    body. Oftentimes just talking about it isn't enough, we need to move that emotional energy

    out of the body so that we can release it and restore ourselves to a healthy balanced nervous

    system. How does that work on the nervous system? Yeah so what it does is it allows us to so the

    eye movements they're bilateral movements moving the eyes left and right and what that does is it

    creates a sense of calm and nervous system regulation in the brain by accessing different

    parts of the brain than talk therapy alone will access. And so as we are recalling the potentially

    the traumatic memories the incidents that have contributed to the trauma response in the body

    we can move those eyes back and forth and follow a sequence of processing that helps calm the brain

    and calm the body and the nervous system as we are recalling the event so that at the end of

    the session we are able to then recall the event in a factual way without that nervous system

    response going over the top. That's incredible to me the body's an amazing thing. I give drugs for

    a living so I know what drugs do to the body and we talked about this before you can change the

    chemistry in your brain and in your body without the use of drugs talk a little bit about that.

    Yes you absolutely can so you know I will say that when I was in the midst of my burnout

    Beth and I know I shared this with you that at one point I was on five different medications to

    help my mental health. I was on antidepressant medication, ADHD medication, anxiety meds, sleep

    meds when I was really in the thick of my burnout and those did not do anything to

    heal what was going on underneath. They did not do anything to heal the underlying trauma. Now I

    am not saying that there's anything wrong with medications. Certainly medications can help people

    when they are really needing that extra layer of support and on top of that we've got to be willing

    to do the deeper work to heal these things at the root cause so that they don't keep showing up as

    symptoms over the years because it just can keep coming back if we don't deal with the root cause.

    So creating safety in the body and creating safety in the nervous system by dealing with the traumas

    at the root cause is really what we want to do in order to change the way the nervous system is

    functioning and essentially to shut down all of those alarm bells that are going off in our

    fight or flight, in our fear centers, the amygdala, all of the cortisol release, like all of the

    hormonal things that go on in a flood when we feel triggered into a trauma response.

    That will be so good for people to hear because I did not know any of this until I started this

    podcast and meeting people like you, that was even a thing. You know, you tradition, you go in,

    you tell them you are depressed or you're having anxiety and the first thing most people think of

    is you're going to be put on a medication. How's that going to affect me? But by healing without

    but by healing without those medications and taming those hormones that are not good in

    and of themselves if they're in high levels in the body is amazing to me. So what you're doing

    is just, I think something so many people need to learn about.

    Absolutely and I feel that I want to keep talking about this and I will keep talking about this

    because when I was going through it, I was Googling and searching online and looking for

    help and support and Googling things like nurse burnout and nurse mental health issues and all of

    this stuff and I really wasn't finding anything that was made just for nurses who are going through

    this. And so because of that, I created that community and I'm so excited. I'd love to share

    that with you, Beth, and tell you what I'm creating here. Go ahead, I want to hear about it.

    Yeah, so it's called Bodacious Radiance Academy and it's a six-month mind-body healing immersion

    specifically for nurses and so during this six-month healing immersion, we'll be meeting

    virtually and I'll be leading the participants through a process to help them heal themselves

    from whatever it is that's going on in their lives. We'll be doing things like hypnotherapy,

    breath work, guided meditations, yoga. I will also be offering individual healing sessions with each

    participant as part of that package deal and I think one of the biggest benefits of doing this

    in community, so it'll be a private virtual community that we'll meet on Zoom, is that other

    people can share their stories with one another and shame cannot live when we speak our truth

    and it is going to be so powerful to witness the healing of the other nurses in the group

    in this community because oftentimes when one heals, we all heal. When one tells her story

    and works on healing that, everyone else almost always goes, oh my gosh, me too, I can so relate

    to what's going on and by letting ourselves be seen and held in community, there is tremendous

    healing power in that and I'm just so excited to launch that. It'll be starting

    at the start of the year. Enrollment is opening in a couple of weeks and it is going to be truly

    life-changing. I cannot wait to hear more about it because I think so many people need it and

    what I would love to see in the future is hospitals covering those costs and paying for that or

    insurance, it doesn't matter. Do you think that will ever happen? I would love to see that happen.

    I would love to see that happen because nurses deserve that. Nurses deserve to work in environments

    where they feel safe, where they feel like they're getting their medical needs met, including their

    mental health needs because there is still such a stigma and such a disconnect when it comes to

    seeking out and receiving mental health support and it feels like one of my life's work projects

    to speak about this and to continue to normalize that our brain is part of the body just like every

    other part and it too needs support and needs to receive care in order to function in a healthy way.

    That brings me to a question. Do you ever have someone or have you had or

    that says I really love my job? I love the unit I work on. It's toxic but I love what I do.

    Can people heal and learn to take care of themselves while still working in that space?

    Yeah, so what I find is that as we can heal our trauma, regardless of how much we do or don't like

    our job and I think sometimes it can be we feel pretty okay about it for a while and then for a

    while it's like oh this is just awful and then it kind of ebbs and flows. At least that was my

    experience over the years but even for somebody who feels largely that they enjoy their job,

    we want to prevent burnout. We want to teach all of these skills so that people can truly

    take care of themselves and have a deeper understanding of how their life experiences

    even before becoming a nurse may impact the way that their mental health journey goes over time.

    Journey goes over time and so even being proactive before disaster strikes, before people

    hopefully never get as burned out as I was, although I know that they're out there,

    we don't have to wait until we can barely get out of bed and barely function before we allow

    ourselves to receive some support. So whether people identify with being deeply burned out

    as I was or maybe just identifying that they're living in chronic stress, receiving support is

    useful. What you're doing is I think going to benefit so many people and it's good to hear that

    people don't have to change everything to start healing themselves. Yeah absolutely I mean because

    I know there are a lot of nurses out there who do love the profession and love the work

    and it's the environment, it's the challenges of the environment that are taking their toll and so

    I think one of the biggest benefits and takeaways from doing a program like the one that I'm offering

    is getting a sense of clarity because when we are in chronic stress it's very hard to be clear

    about our goals and dreams in life, about you know where we're going in life because truly often we

    are simply in survival mode and when we're just in survival mode day to day and all we're looking at

    is how can I get through this shift or how can I get through this week so I can get to my days off,

    that's survival mode and I look back I was in that for decades, I really was and what I want

    to empower people to do is go beyond survival mode and from just surviving to thriving.

    I love that. Is there a time frame, is everyone individual in how they heal and move on?

    Yeah I would say so. I think some people like, well I guess like me, I waited to

    seek help until I just couldn't go anymore. I waited until the burnout really just kind of took me

    down to the bottom of the depths of despair and hopelessness and shame and misery

    and that will be some people, some of the listeners may identify with feeling that way.

    If you are that person I just want to tell you there is hope to be had, this is not your fault,

    you can heal from this and you have to choose, okay you've got to choose. Sending those people

    so much love because that's such a painful place to be. Other people may realize maybe they see

    their co-workers kind of thrashing and sinking and realize like oh gosh like maybe I don't want to

    kind of let it get to that point. I think I'll reach out and get some support and

    and get some clarity on how I can live my fullest life before it gets to the point where I can't

    function and that takes a certain boldness and bravery. The name I chose for this

    program that I'm releasing, the Bodacious Radiance Academy, so bodacious meaning just

    boldly audacious. I think it takes a certain audacity to kind of say like hey I love myself,

    I am worth it, I am going to speak out, I am going to be true to me, I'm going to kind of go

    against the grain in some way and boldly go after joy in my life and so that's why the name bodacious

    and it's also a little bit of a nod to like the mind-body connection because I think

    sometimes when we think of bodacious we think of like the body you know and really when we do the

    mind-body healing that's where those deep benefits come from. So yeah, there will be all types of

    people, all people on different paths and different steps on their journey and I feel that anyone and

    everyone can benefit from coming into that space to heal. I would like to see every nurse everywhere

    have you know the ability to go through that and take care of themselves from the beginning

    all the way through their careers. Absolutely, I think the thing that I want to say to the listeners

    is you are so much more than your profession, you are so much more than your profession,

    you can have so much joy in your life, you can have fun, you can be in love with life,

    you can be healthy mind, body and spirit and even if you're not hating your job and you're

    thinking well what's the big deal? Yeah, nursing's hard but like I'm doing okay.

    Here's the thing, sometimes we can fool ourselves, we can think we're doing okay and we may be

    doing amazing at work. I mean many nurses it's like you can go and do amazing work and crush it

    during your shift but what is the rest of your life looking like? What are your relationships

    looking like? What is your physical health looking like? What are the goals that you

    keep telling yourself you're going to go after because you know they will bring you joy

    and fulfillment but it's just not happening because you don't have the energy. So those

    are some of the things that we can also look at because I want to see nurses loving their life

    as a whole, not just leaving the rest of their life with kind of the scraps of their energy

    which is what I did for decades. Yeah at the end of the day if there's nothing left it's hard to

    take care of yourself and the important people around you. I totally agree with that.

    So where can people find you? Yes so my website is jillbrandl.com that's j-i-l-l-b-r-a-n-d-l.com.

    My Instagram is jillbrandl.aprn and my Facebook as well. So I have a Facebook, I have Instagram,

    I have my website and I just want to create a sense of connection and community out there

    for those who are looking for it. I think that is incredible. I'm going to find that myself so I can

    start listening to you more. I think what you're doing is just amazing and I hope so many people

    come and find you that are that need help, that want to change, that want to feel better because

    I think you are the real deal. Thank you Beth. I appreciate that. It really is again one of those

    my pain became my purpose and I wanted to mention too that I also do individual sessions with people.

    I do individual one-on-one therapy healing and trauma healing and other and even coaching and

    things like that for people who are looking for that as well as this group container that I

    described and I'm so excited to bring my combination of my lived experience and that those

    hard-earned lived experiences through my own severe burnout and combine that with my clinical

    expertise as a psychiatric nurse practitioner. I really feel that it's the best of both worlds

    also combined with a good sense of humor. That's important too. I know laughing is good.

    Yes. As sad as I am that you had to go through all that I really think you will

    help others because of that. I feel that too. I feel that I would have never said this a year

    or two ago when I was in it but I truly am grateful for the lessons I have learned through

    this experience. It was very hard. It was one of the hardest periods I have ever gone through in

    my life and it lasted a long time but now that I am on the other side of it I truly am grateful

    for those lessons because I would not be who I am today without it and I am absolutely loving life.

    It actually shook me awake. It awakened me. It opened my eyes. It expanded my heart. It made me

    see that life does not have to be that way and I can promise you Beth I will never go back to that

    way of life again and I'm grateful for those lessons. I'm excited for the people that can

    find you and after they talk to you they can say the same thing you know however long it takes.

    Absolutely. Jill thank you so much for coming on today. I want to have you back after you start

    doing this for a while and bringing these communities together and I want you to tell us

    how it's going. I would absolutely love that. I'm so excited to share. Thank you. Thanks for

    being here today. Thanks for having me Beth. I just want to say thanks again to Jill for being

    on the show. The recognition that she brings to the mental health issues going on in nursing right

    now especially talking about PTSD that I think we know a lot of people are going through in our

    current state in our profession so I appreciate her coming on and bringing that up and if you want

    to find Jill please look in the show notes and you'll find all of her contact information there.

    I hope all of you are doing well and be safe out there.

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