Helping Nurses Heal Nurses with Traci Powell
Traci Powell is helping nurses heal.
Traci Powell is a PMHNP and is nationally certified in Trauma Care. She has known 3 colleagues that have completed suicide and is dedicated to helping others heal before they take their own lives. She says that professionals in medicine don’t usually reach out for help. Traci offers intense therapy in different states in the US, hoping to reach as many people as she can.
Traci has a Facebook group called Nurses Healing Nurses that is a dedicated space for nurses to share their stories and gain positive feedback from others who can understand what we are all going through in this profession. “Nursing is beyond burnout, it is PTSD”, says Traci, and many need the help that she is able to provide.
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About Traci
I’m a board certified psychiatric/mental health nurse practitioner, Certified Trauma Treatment Specialist, writer, trauma education consultant and an unshakable force dedicated to helping you become the person you were always meant to be and unbecome what was never you in the first place.
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Intro/Outro:
Welcome to Don't Eat Your Young, a nursing podcast with your host, Beth Quaas. Before we get started, we have a few quick notes. Don't Eat Your Young is a listener-supported podcast. To learn more about becoming a member and the perks available to you for becoming a patron yourself, visit patreon.com/donteatyouryoung. You can learn more about the show, share your story to join Beth as a guest, or connect with our wonderful community in our Facebook group. You can find all those links and more at donteatyouryoung.com. And now, on with the show.
Beth Quaas:
Hello and welcome back to Don't Eat Your Young. I'm your host Beth Quaas. Today we have Traci Powell who is a dual board certified neonatal and psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner. She's also certified as a trauma treatment specialist. She's a writer, trauma education consultant, and an unshakable force dedicated to helping adult survivors of trauma and abuse return to their authentic selves and step into their wholeness. Traci, thank you for being here. It's so nice to have you today.
Traci Powell:
I'm thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me.
Beth Quaas:
Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Traci Powell:
Well, I've been a nurse for 29 years. It's hard to believe. Started out in a telemetry unit. I worked there for about eight years, and got a little tired of changing adult diapers. And one day I was in a class when I was getting my bachelor's degree with a nurse who worked in a NICU nearby, and I was like, "How do I get into your unit?" And at the time you had to have experience, [inaudible 00:01:48], but she said, "Just come apply. We're desperate." And so, I went and I applied and I worked in that NICU for eight years. And ultimately, at that time, I decided to move to Florida from New Jersey. And so I came down here and I did some corporate education, I worked as neonatal educator for about five years, but during that time I really missed the clinical aspect of it, and so I went back and I got my neonatal nurse practitioner.
Traci Powell:
And after that, I worked in a Level IV NICU for a little over seven years as a neonatal nurse practitioner, but in the middle of that, I kind of had a total undoing of myself. So I had been the strong mom and nurse practitioner, and I create a lot of programs and all these great things, and everybody thought I was so brave and so independent. And ultimately, though, my mid-forties, I completely fell into depression and panic, and anxiety. And I was terrified because it was something I'd never experienced before. And I was afraid to reach out, because there's a lot of stigma against people who have mental health issues. And in my job, it was really hard because I had had a broken leg and got a text from my boss, and said, "I don't care if you're crawling, you better be at work." So how was I going to say I have mental health issues and I needed a break? I just need some downtime. So I plowed through, but ultimately because I was too embarrassed to say how bad things were. I actually contemplated take in my life.
Traci Powell:
And in that moment, I realized that I wasn't doing my children any good if I did that. And I also realized that I shouldn't have to lose my life, nor should anyone else over something that someone had done to you. So what actually had happened was for years of my childhood lived I through a lot of abuse, and I worked hard for decades to just rise above it and try to act like it didn't affect me, but it always showed up in little ways. And eventually, in my mid-forties, my brain was like, "Nope, I can't take it anymore. You've got to deal with this." And so, ultimately, I did start dealing with it and I went to therapy, and I started to see there was a lot of lack for professionals, especially who need support through mental health times. There were not many good places for me to go to really get good help, so I said I'm on a journey to figure out how to help myself and the complex PTSD I was living with.
Traci Powell:
And then through my healing journey and starting to speak my story for the first time ever, I started meeting a lot of women, especially nurses, who when they would hear my story they would tell me their story for the first time they ever spoke. And I have had two nurses in particular in the last couple of years who had suicide plans, who after telling their story, told me theirs. And I was able to get them help. And it just really woke me up to how when we sit in silence not only are we hurting ourselves, but we're hurting others too, because my speaking of my story has given permission to hundreds of people to speak their story.
Traci Powell:
And so, ultimately, I went back and I got my postmaster certificate as a psych mental health nurse practitioner. I started a practice last March, left the NICU in June, and now this is what I do. I work here. I help, primarily adults, who are trying to cope with the effects of their childhood abuse. Most of them are professionals. And I also recently started a group called Nurses Healing Nurses on Facebook because I've had so many nurses reach out to me and there's just so much burnout and frustration, and I believe trauma going on with nurses and most medical professionals right now. And so I started that group and I'm doing that too.
Beth Quaas:
I agree. There are people going through so much right now. And I just have to thank you for coming on and speaking your truth and letting people know that you go through this and you cover it for so long, and now it's time to heal yourself. So I really thank you for being here.
Traci Powell:
All right. It's my pleasure.
Beth Quaas:
So now you're working in psychiatric mental health and you're seeing a good response from people. Hopefully, more can hear about this and come out. I know as nurse practitioners, as advanced practice nurses, when we fill out credentialing paperwork we have to say, do we have any mental health problems? Can you speak to that?
Traci Powell:
I swear, I think it's going to be my dying wish to figure out how to get that checkbox off that form, because it puts terror into people. If I check this box, what does that mean? What am I saying? And the truth of the matter is, yes, I have PTSD, and yes, I would have flashbacks, but it did not affect my job. The babies I cared for were the most important thing to me, so I was very good at making sure I showed up and I did my job well. And when I got to where I knew I really needed to take care of myself, I did ultimately step away for a little bit so I could do my own healing.
Traci Powell:
So it's really kind of infuriating idea that, "Oh, I'm going to come to work and I'm not going to be my best self." Another thing that really gets me is I will get references from practitioners who are applying for new jobs, and it will ask me, "As a reference, do you know of any mental health conditions this person has?" And even though I'm a mental health specialist now, that doesn't mean I know that person well enough to say "Yes, they do." And most people, especially in the neonatal world, if I'm sending it from NNP to NNP, we're not qualified to diagnose each other and decide who's stable and who isn't.
Beth Quaas:
Right. I agree. It's not my story to tell, I think, if someone asks me for a reference. Same with when you get the question about drug and alcohol abuse. Again, who would ask for help by checking that box? I don't think anyone would, because I don't know where that paperwork goes. I don't know who sees it. And then is it punitive?
Traci Powell:
Exactly. And that's what makes it so scary. So then you're afraid to reach out for help. And the sad truth is after my almost near death, we actually did lose three physicians to suicide in the following years. And they were like me. Everybody was like, "What?" And if I had been successful, it would've been the same situation, because everybody saw me as I'm fine and quiet and just say to myself, and it would've been shocking.
Beth Quaas:
What was your first step in healing?
Traci Powell:
Really it was that night, because in the midst of what I was doing, I heard my daughter laugh. And weirdly my kids were in bed asleep, and yet my daughter's laugh pierced my head, and it woke me up to, "What am I doing?" Because when you're in that frame of mind you just can't think straight, because your brain is stuck in limbic mood which keeps you from being able to rationalize what you're doing. You're just stuck in that really sad, deep despair. But having her laugh pierce through the veil of what I was feeling and woke me up to, "Oh, my gosh, I cannot do this." And in that moment, I even realized not only can't I lose my kids, but somebody has to be a voice for people like me who feel like there is no hope.
Traci Powell:
And again, especially for my story, the abuse that happened to me wasn't my fault. I don't want myself or anyone to lose their lives over something that is not their fault. Nobody should do it anyway by suicide, right? But just the idea that we feel so bad about ourselves because of these things. And so, that was the catalyst, because I had seen a couple therapists and they were helpful, but they didn't understand how to help complex PTSD and adults who were living with the effects of childhood abuse. Because when you turn 18, it doesn't just go away. You might get good at pretending it's gone for a long time, but it will get you eventually.
Beth Quaas:
And so, people hearing this and maybe have gone through this, is there a way to give them a first step to start their own healing?
Traci Powell:
The first step, well, I would always recommend if it involves a lot of childhood abuse is to reach out to a therapist who knows how to help. But even really before that, the first step is acknowledging what you're experiencing. That it's okay to go through this, that you're not broken, because that's... Sometimes you feel like, "There's something wrong with me. I'm the problem. And so if I'm the problem there must not be a solution, and so I may as well just give up." But you're not the problem. And even childhood abuse aside, I'm working with a couple people right now who are in toxic work environments, and they're ready to give up, and they're unbelievably depressed. And it's because they're literally being bullied by their bosses. After a while, it kind of has the same effect as complex PTSD. And with complex PTSD, it's not a one-time thing, it goes on and on and on and on, until eventually you start to doubt yourself, you start to doubt the relationships that you're in. It changes how you handle things, and it's all just from being in that toxic environment that you're in.
Beth Quaas:
And they're conflicted because they love caring for patients, and they don't want to leave that. But I agree, there are more and more toxic work environments and nurses we know are leaving the bedside because of that.
Traci Powell:
Yeah. It's just so sad, because a lot of the time, some of the toxic people are nurses that have risen to leadership. I mean, it was a nurse who said to me, "I don't care if you're crawling, come to work." And I think she thought maybe she was kidding, but when you're in a vulnerable state and all you need is someone to support you and say, "We got you," it's not funny in the moment, and years later you could say it still has an impact on me, right? Because now I became terrified after that do dare get sick, don't have any problems.
Beth Quaas:
Right. And at that time you probably had a sense of guilt in potentially not going to work that day.
Traci Powell:
Well, and especially in my job, because the way our unit was set up there was only one neonatal practitioner on at a time. So if you weren't on, it really was a burden on the rest of the team because we weren't a big team, so they would have to pick up extra time as well.
Beth Quaas:
And I hear that from nurses all the time, "I feel guilt if I call in sick to work." And you know what? The place you're working for can take care of it. They will. Take care of yourself. Take the day off if you need it. You're not doing yourself any favor, I think, by going in.
Traci Powell:
Or your patients, because we are showing up sick. They don't want to get sicker.
Beth Quaas:
Absolutely. And what-
Traci Powell:
And you can't give your best, right? When you're not feeling well.
Beth Quaas:
And not just from broken bones like you had, or physical illnesses, but you can speak to the mental health. If you need the day off, you have to take it off.
Traci Powell:
Right. There are people who take advantage of that, and I get that, but I think those people are not as many as we think. And I just think as coworkers we need to be supportive of one another, because right now we have this massive collective trauma going on. And people are experiencing it and feeling it in different ways, and we can't judge each other for how we're dealing with what's happening right now. Beyond COVID, we're dealing with staffing shortages. Some people are getting canceled. So they're losing their PTO and they're getting paid. There's a lot going on. We have a lot of vicarious trauma just from those of us who weren't actually on the front lines and still watching colleagues that we don't even know go through these things. It was really hard to watch. So we need to try to be more compassionate and less judgemental when it comes to each other.
Beth Quaas:
Yes, I completely agree with that. So, your business now is helping those who have gone through some sort of trauma. And you have a certification in that, correct?
Traci Powell:
Yes, I have an international certification as a traumatic stress or traumatic treatment specialist. And so, I kind of have a unique practice in that most of what I do is people come to me for two or three days at a time. We do intensive therapy, which involves different things like EMDR, which is a way of processing trauma, and something called ego state therapy, because having that time and space to really work through the trauma the person has dealt with and lived through, and now the symptoms, just helps bring so much more healing.
Beth Quaas:
So that is one-on-one therapy? Is that correct?
Traci Powell:
Yes. Yeah, they're with me the entire day.
Beth Quaas:
So it's a pretty intensive session with you. It's not just an hour here or there.
Traci Powell:
Right. It's nine o'clock in the morning. Most days we go to five or six o'clock, it depends on how my client's doing and how they're feeling, and sometimes if we're getting a lot done, we might skip lunch even and just keep going, because it really is, I have to say, the greatest joy of my life other than my kids, because I sit here and watch amazing things happen. There is magic and miracles that happen in this room, and every single time it happens it amazes me. People have the ability and their own minds and brains to do what they need to do to heal, even though it feels like you don't. It just needs someone to help that you can. And with the time and space to do that it's happening.
Beth Quaas:
I think that's amazing work. And you're not just stopping there, you're growing, and you're on the cutting edge of doing some really neat things.
Traci Powell:
Yeah. I'm hoping to eventually bring in ketamine next year as the plan, because I do have some clients who have had so much trauma that's hard for them to really get beyond it, so that kind of really helps them to deal with that in their depression. And there's psychedelic stuff coming out that's being tested. It's not approved yet, but I'm going to be trained and I'll be ready for when it comes out.
Beth Quaas:
Yeah, I think we talked last time. I had seen something on the news about treating veterans with that and they couldn't say enough good things about it, that it totally brought them from the point of suicide back to being able to live their lives.
Traci Powell:
Yeah, I'm excited to start doing it.
Beth Quaas:
So is that going to open up soon?
Traci Powell:
Well, you know what's funny? You should ask. I just this morning was driving around trying to find a place to have it because I need to move out of this office. I want to really have it be a healing space. It's more room than this. So, I'm hoping my goal is the end of spring.
Beth Quaas:
And so talk a little bit about that therapy so people understand what's coming out.
Traci Powell:
Well, so the cutting edge stuff is the psychedelic stuff, because they're finding... There was this great fear for a long time about psychedelics, and that it was addictive, but the research is showing it's not addictive. In fact, it's some of the least addictive that's out there. And it's microdoses. So, people who get it are just getting these small doses, but what it does is it allows their brain to really to kind of open up their subconscious, which is where we hold a lot of our trauma, and where a lot of our depression and anxiety comes from is in there. And so the work I do here involves hypnotherapy, involves getting into the person's subconscious.
Traci Powell:
And for a lot of people I can get there, but for people who really have horrible depression, or really bad PTSD, they just can't seem to settle into it because it's too scary, then these drugs help them to go there and it gives them a peaceful state. And then the therapist is with you to help you process through what's happening and to support the person through the experience you're having from the psychedelic. And then afterwards you process the things that have come up.
Beth Quaas:
I think that's just amazing. And I'm so happy that you can come on today and share with people what's coming out. There is hope, and it's coming.
Traci Powell:
And there's hope now, even without psychedelics, right? Not everybody needs to go to that extreme, but it all starts with reaching out, and it starts with yourself and acknowledging, are you struggling? Do you need help? Do you just need someone to talk to? I mean, maybe it helps just to come into Nurses Healing Nurses and talk to other nurses too. Here are other people who are having similar experiences. We have people who will post and ask how do you deal with wanting to quit your job? Or how do you deal with burnout? And so, just having that feedback is really great. And my hope is, I'm the one planning this too, that we're going to start doing some retreats for nurses next year.
Beth Quaas:
I think that would be amazing for people to get away. And it's not so easy to talk to coworkers sometimes, sometimes you need to talk to someone that's going through what you're going through, but isn't in your unit, your facility, I think it makes it easier sometimes.
Traci Powell:
Yeah, because we have a collective understanding for the most part of what we're going through and talking to someone, right? Who isn't as close can be beneficial.
Beth Quaas:
Absolutely. So tell us who is in Nurses Healing Nurses? Who is in your Facebook group?
Traci Powell:
It's all nurses, nurse practitioners, there's some nurse administrators in there. I watch constantly because I don't want there to be a staff nurse versus administration. If administrators are in there, they need to be supportive and not judgemental. And so, I watch it really closely, but it's... So far so good. It's going really well, and I think it's a good thing.
Beth Quaas:
So, where can people find you if they want to reach out to you?
Traci Powell:
They could reach me at my email, which is Traci, T-R-A-C-I Powell, P-O-W-E-L-L A-P-R-N@gmail.com. My website, therebuiltwoman.com, will tell you a lot about me. And then Nurses Healing Nurses is a Facebook group that you could... If you search Nurses Healing Nurses group on Facebook you'll find it.
Beth Quaas:
Do you offer telehealth services as well?
Traci Powell:
I do.
Beth Quaas:
Because not everybody is in Florida. So it's very important to be able to find you and not have to travel, because I think you're offering an amazing thing for people that have suffered trauma and PTSD. And some people may say, "Well, yep, I'm burnt out, but it's not PTSD," or "I am not there yet." Talk to those people that probably are there, but don't feel they are.
Traci Powell:
Well, I would encourage you there are lots of self assessment for PTSD online. And even if you don't meet the requirement for PTSD, if you're struggling, that's what matters, right? I think as nurses sometimes we need to take tests and we need to have numbers that show us who we are and what we are, and symptoms have to show up and all of that, but in the end, what is your day-to-day experience? If you're just having trouble getting through the day, that's all it takes, right? If you need a little support, there's nothing wrong with that. We all have mental health. And just because your mental health isn't feeling so great right now it doesn't mean that you're mentally ill, it just means that you are struggling, and that's okay.
Traci Powell:
If you don't mind, I'd like to clarify one thing though, because I'm licensed in Florida and Delaware and Washington. Those are the states that I can only do psychotherapy in. I do offer some coaching for people who contact me outside of the state. As far as my intensives go, unless it's somebody from Washington or Delaware, people do have to come to me, which I have people from all over the country come down, but I am happy to connect to coach for anyone, or to help people connect with other therapists who understand this and can help them through. I'm trying to grow a group of PHNPs that will be here because I really like nurses helping nurses, because we have a different understanding.
Beth Quaas:
We completely do. And there are many healthcare workers outside of nursing that also need help, but until you're in nursing, it's hard to understand. And once you are, I think you can really help others by just understanding what they're going through, and supporting them in that.
Traci Powell:
Yeah.
Beth Quaas:
Are you doing any work with hospitals to go in and talk to them at all? And do you see a need for that to help administrators understand?
Traci Powell:
I see a huge need for that. And I think about all the time. It keeps me awake at night. The truth is I don't have the time, so if there's anybody out there who wants to partner with me and do this, I'd be thrilled to do it. The whole thing is playing out in my head, I just have not had the time to really dive into that.
Beth Quaas:
I know we're hearing a lot more about wellness and resilience within these hospital systems, but I'm not sure if the people creating those programs understand what we need.
Traci Powell:
Well, and I think this is the data side of me. I can't remember if we've talked about my attitude about being called superheroes. It drives me out of my mind and I kind of put the resilience talk up there with that. Yeah, we can talk about resilience, and resilience is hugely important, but if you're using resilience as a weapon to say, "Oh, you've got to be stronger and bounce back," and ignore what the person is feeling, then we're just adding more shame to people. What's wrong with you? Why can't you be stronger? Why are you asking these questions? It just drives me nuts.
Beth Quaas:
I agree. And resilience only goes so far. If it's because of a toxic work environment or unsafe or insecure work environment, that's not up to the nurses to change. That's up to the administration to change, the hospitals, the facilities. Go in and find out what is making it a hard place to work.
Traci Powell:
Right. Exactly.
Beth Quaas:
And so what would you say to some of those administrators?
Traci Powell:
Well, what would I say?
Beth Quaas:
You have a lot of experience in hospitals as well. You understand what goes on.
Traci Powell:
Yeah, having an honest conversation, I'm a little burnt out with hospital administrators, and that's why I'm not in a hospital anymore because it's kind of like, "Let me take that... Well, I'll just keep banging my head.
Beth Quaas:
I'm in the same place you are. I understand.
Traci Powell:
Yeah. And that's why now my focus is on the nurses that are doing the job, because it's kind of like my work with child sexual abuse survivors. I have a lot of people who are like, "Why aren't you out there trying to stop it from happening?" The sad reality is it's going to happen. Somebody's got to be there to support the people that have been through it. That's how I feel about this. Until some administrator, I think, steps up and says, "We are doing an injustice to our nursing staff," or not treating them well, this is going to continue.
Traci Powell:
And because my daughter is now in a nursing program, and I don't want her to fall into this toxicity... She's going to be exposed to it, but I want her to have her own [inaudible 00:24:57] so that she has some defense against it. And so, for me, this is about working with nurses and helping them get stronger and recognize how just because someone has a horrible behavior, they were a bully, whatever it is, one you don't have to stay in the situation or two, let's help you disconnect from the power that you give them emotionally.
Beth Quaas:
I love that.
Traci Powell:
And honestly, many nurses go into nursing because they have their own abuse history. That was one of the things with me, right? I grew up, never had the care that I needed, and so I was like, "I'm going to give it to everyone." And so a lot of us already have the trauma underlying of all of that. And when you've got trauma under trauma, then your resilience and your tolerance for the new trauma that you're taking on is much less versus someone who didn't have that kind of background. So for people, especially who feel like, "I'm having massive panic attacks. I'm really struggling with depression," ask, "Is there something in my past that also maybe might be making this worse?" Because after decades of trying to walk away from it you tend to forget that, "Oh, that could be affecting me as well."
Beth Quaas:
That's good information for people to hear. I, again, applaud you for coming and sharing your story because I'm hoping that it will draw more people to you to get the help and support that they need. What tips would you share with nurses today to maybe help them through some of this?
Traci Powell:
Well, the first thing I say to everybody is you work in a field that has endless possibilities. And so, one of the things I often hear is, "Oh, I can't leave. I've here for eight years." "Oh, I can't leave. I run this program." "Oh, I can't leave. I have a pension." But if you're miserable in life, what good is it doing? You work in a field where really truly the possibilities are endless, from kids, to neonates, to adults, to not even being in the hospital, to having your own business. There's so much you can do to try to push beyond that feeling of this toxic environment I can't see past it, because sometimes it's hard to realize there's something else out there. You feel trapped. But remember, you're not trapped, you are an intelligent, educated person. And right now especially, places are higher and all over the place.
Beth Quaas:
They are. And I hear a lot of questions from nurses saying, "Well, what would I do? What could I do? What's out there?" Well, that's part of this podcast as well, letting people know about different opportunities, but there are also people... I had a guest last season, Mary Buffington. She is helping nurses decide what's the best place for them to go within nursing, what's available to them, because there's so many avenues, like you said, that we don't even know about.
Traci Powell:
Yeah, that's great. Yeah, there are things that I never even considered until now.
Beth Quaas:
Right. So I think getting out there that's a great tip. Get out there and find out what's out there and available to you and where do your interests lie? Anything else you'd like nurses to know?
Traci Powell:
Well, I want to go back to kind of what I said earlier, which is that we need to band together. I love that your podcast is about eating your young. I have my own scars from being eaten when I was young in nursing, right? But I have observed over the years that it's not just older nurses eating their young, sometimes we attack each other. I vividly remember a nurse taking FMLA because of mental health issues and nurses pulling up her Facebook page and seeing that she was at the beach, and making a big deal of it and I was like, "Well, if I had mental health problems I'd probably be at the too."
Traci Powell:
I send some of my clients to the beach, "Go where it's calming where you're going to feel better." Right? So to sit around and in pods of people and belittle others when you don't understand the experience, let's try not to do that to each other. We need to band together and support each other because these are tough times. And it is the education that we have. So unless you're willing to leave the field, how can we work together to make it as tolerable as possible for each other?
Beth Quaas:
I completely agree. And I would say the young and don't eat your young can mean many things. It's not just new nurses. It's not just young or inexperienced. I've seen bullying of very experienced nurses by younger people, by younger nurses, because maybe their youngness is they don't understand the technology. They're not so quick with the IV pumps or things like that. So their youngness is in maybe they're inexperience in different things. So I agree. We could be a very powerful force if we all banded together.
Traci Powell:
There's 3.8 million of us.
Beth Quaas:
That is amazing.
Traci Powell:
That's a lot of people.
Beth Quaas:
And we all want what's best for our patients, but we also need to want what's best for our colleagues.
Traci Powell:
Right. And ourselves.
Beth Quaas:
And ourselves. Supporting, kindness, asking the questions, "How are you doing?"
Traci Powell:
I think I could say these are part of the dreams I have at night. I would like to see Nurses Healing Nurses grow to where maybe there are groups in different areas of the country, where you start a group where we're going to band together and we're going to support each other and find to talk about the hard things, and maybe trying to figure out how to have change happen because it's tough out there right now.
Beth Quaas:
Absolutely. And I think that's the call to action today. Let's get Nurses Healing Nurses up and going and grow and parse out into smaller communities if that's what's going to serve each other.
Traci Powell:
I like it.
Beth Quaas:
I thank you so much for being here today, Traci. I think you have a powerful message. And I think not only do you have a message, but you're helping people that also have that same story.
Traci Powell:
It's my pleasure being here. I appreciate you having me.
Intro/Outro:
Don't Eat Your Young was produced in partnership with TruStory FM, engineering by Andy Nelson, music by The Lighthearts. Find the show, show notes and transcripts at donteatyouryoung.com. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show. But the best thing you could do to support the show is to share it with a friend or colleague. Thank you for listening.
