Holistic Well-Being with Liz Burkholder
Meet Liz
Liz Burkholder from Charlotte, North Carolina, joins Beth today. Liz Burkholder is an integrative, double-board certified Family Nurse Practitioner and Psychiatric Mental Health Nurse Practitioner, hypnotherapist, trauma specialist, and mind-body practitioner. She and Beth talk about holistic well-being and how to take care of yourself through deconstructive transformation.
About Liz
Liz began her own healing journey at age 17 after a divine intervention changed the trajectory of her life. After her experience with trauma as a child, she found herself as a lost, self-loathing, depressed, and anxious high school dropout with no sense of self-worth.
Liz has spent her life healing herself and becoming a healer for others. Her biggest passion is teaching others how to heal themselves. She uses hypnotherapy, meditation, breathwork, and yoga as some of her primary interventions. She developed Transpersonal and Trauma Healing Hypnotherapy (TTHH) to help people actually process, release, and heal traumatic events that have negatively affected their body, mind, and life. Her motto is “Anything can be healed.”
Liz is currently pursuing a PhD in Mind Body Medicine with a specialization in Integrative Mental Health from Saybrook University.
Links
Reach out to Liz at Burkholder Wellness
Learn more about supporting the Don’t Eat Your Young Podcast with a membership — visit Don’t Eat Your Young’s membership page!
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Intro/Outro:
Welcome to Don't Eat Your Young, a nursing podcast, with your host Beth Quaas. Before we get started, we have a few quick notes. Don't Eat Your Young is a listener supported podcast. To learn more about becoming a member and the perks available to you for becoming a patron yourself, visit patreon.com/donteatyouryoung. You can learn more about the show, share your story to join Beth as a guest, or connect with our wonderful community in our Facebook group. You can find all those links and more at donteatyouryoung.com. And now on with the show.
Beth Quaas:
Hello everyone and welcome to Don't Eat Your Young. I'm your host Beth Quaas. Today our guest will be Liz Burkholder. She's coming to us from Charlotte, North Carolina. She's been a nurse in med surg and oncology. She's an FNP and now she's a psych mental health NP. She's going to talk to us today about holistic wellbeing and how to take care of yourself, deconstructing transformation. So welcome to the show, Liz. How are you today?
Liz Burkholder:
Thank you. I'm great. How are you?
Beth Quaas:
I'm good, thank you. Tell us a little bit about yourself and what you're doing.
Liz Burkholder:
Yes, so I'm happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me. So I'm Liz Burkholder. I live in Charlotte, North Carolina. I am a double board certified nurse practitioner. I'm certified as a family nurse practitioner and as a psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner. And I tend to do more psychiatric mental health these days, just because that's where my truest passion, my biggest passion lies. Being someone who suffered with a lot of mental and emotional health issues myself, especially in my early earlier years, I'm just super passionate about helping people with those things.
So I do a lot of trauma work and a lot of mind body medicine. So I use different modalities. Two of the big ones that I use are hypnotherapy, which is a trauma focused hypnotherapy, and then also breath work. And then I tie in a lot of other things like yoga, movement, meditation, mindfulness, things like that. But I have a practice here in Charlotte called Burkholder Wellness, and I do see one-on-one clients, although I am moving now more into groups, workshops, and trainings.
So I have a lot of group workshops and trainings coming up just to teach people how to heal themselves and heal their trauma. And a lot of that is childhood trauma. And I do a lot of inner child work. There's a lot of different modalities that I kind of interweave together to help people heal on all levels, mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual.
Beth Quaas:
And I know that you have a weekend long, do you call it a retreat or a workshop? Is it this coming weekend or next weekend?
Liz Burkholder:
Yes. I'm super excited. It's tomorrow, starts tomorrow, this weekend. And we do call it a retreat. That business is Healing Circle of Fire. It's a business that I run with a friend and we take women and do a deep dive transformational retreat from Thursday night to Sunday morning. And it's just a full immersive weekend of hypnotherapy, meditation, inner child work, yoga, breath work. We have a sound healer coming this time to do a sound healing, and it's intuitive dance and movements. And it is just a whole weekend of amazingness and healing. So yeah, we do that. I do that as well.
Beth Quaas:
In this day and age with everything that's gone on over the past couple years, I'm sure you are very busy.
Liz Burkholder:
Unfortunately, that there's so much going on in the world. But fortunately, too it's what I do and it's what I love. And there's not a shortage of people who need help in these areas. So my goal is eventually for no one to really need me.
Beth Quaas:
You're right.
Liz Burkholder:
That would be nice. Right? But there's so much out there and so many people to reach and to help and to heal that I don't know if that'll happen in my lifetime. But I do think collectively we are on the way. I think there's a lot of shifts happening. A lot of people are healing and a lot of people are waking up to the fact that there's childhood trauma and even their adulthood trauma is affecting them today, in the present day. And it's not just in the past, like we say. I mean it is in the past, but we also know that the body keeps the score and the body stores trauma in our nervous system, in our body, in our psyche.
And it keeps replaying almost on replay in that subconscious way until we become aware of it. And that's the bad news. The good news is that we now know with things like neuroplasticity and epigenetics and all these studies around healing, that we can actually heal these things. And we can transform and we can rewire our nervous system, and we can rewire our subconscious mind, and we can heal our bodies and our minds. So yeah, there's a lot of work to be done and I'm just grateful to be doing it.
Again, I think we get in these fields because we have our own stuff that we kind of want to either work through, or understand, or learn about, or help others with. So I had my own journey of, in my own experience with trauma, childhood trauma and even burnout as a clinician. I know we briefly talked about that in the past and we'll probably touch on that in this episode. And those things compound. And I've had my share of all of those things, which is how I ended up here. So just happy to give back.
Beth Quaas:
Right. It's funny how our paths brought us here because I too have gone through burnout as many nurses, and like we said many in healthcare have for sure. I really like what you do because you don't just offer somebody that comes in, you don't just say, "Let's give you a medication." You really like to look at it holistically and offer them things that may help without or in addition to medication.
Liz Burkholder:
And that's where I do say I'm an integrative and holistic nurse practitioner. Integrative meaning merging western and eastern medicine, merging alternative complimentary therapies with conventional therapies, not kind of throwing either out fully. I think that we can learn from obviously both. And I think that some of the best medicine is bringing them together, bringing the pieces over here that work and leaving the rest, and bringing the pieces over here that work and leaving the rest, and knowing that each person is different, and each person will respond to things differently, and that each person needs an individualized personalized care plan.
So yeah, I do tend to lean a little more into the holistic areas these days and truly use medications as a last resort, which they should be, in my opinion, a last line therapy. Whereas in our system, they've become the first and only line therapy, which is just not right either. So yeah, I do things in a very integrative way and I highly encourage my patients and clients to look deeper, below the surface, and let's go deeper because there's almost always more underneath that's creating or causing our symptoms and our issues.
Beth Quaas:
Now I know we know that we have to treat patients individually, but when we get back to burnout, are you finding some things that work better than others?
Liz Burkholder:
Well, I'll tell you with my own journey. Here's what I see just in my experience, from my own personal experience and from working with hundreds, well, yeah, working with hundreds of clients over the last six years doing this specific kind of work, meaning trauma healing, inner child work, and hypnotherapy. And working with many clinicians and many healers in the fields, whether that's in the conventional world or the integrative world or the holistic world or the naturalistic world where metaphysical healers, energetic healers, those kinds. I've worked with all.
One of the core things, one of the core issues with healers in general, is that we have this deep underlying driving need and urge to save and rescue people. And so it's like, we can call it the Savior Complex, we can call it codependency, we can call it rescuer, we can call it whatever. There's a lot of names we call it. But what I've found is when we go into hypnotherapy sessions with these clients and myself, I've experienced this myself, often, those of us in these fields began very, very early in our lives taking care of others around us.
And that means I've had people go all the way back to ages 1, 2, 3, where they realized, I'm responsible for my siblings, I'm responsible for my parents. I'm responsible for my dad and his outbursts, and I got to walk on eggshells to make sure his emotions stay under control. I'm responsible for my mom and if she's going to drink or not today. So if I'm good, maybe she won't drink. And if I'm good and quiet and the good girl or the good boy, well then maybe I'll control her behavior. It goes way, way, way back. It's a deep wound within us often. And we become caretakers very early, either emotional caretakers, physical caretakers.
I've talked to people who were cooking dinner for the family at age 8 and 10, and 8 and 10 year olds who were taking care of the baby brother while mom's working, because dad's locked up in prison, whatever. There's all kinds of stuff that happened here. And so what happens is we learn very, very early as children that it's my responsibility to take care of everyone, whatever that looks like. There's a whole lot of scenarios that this shows up as. And what happens is we learn that when I'm caring for others, well then that I'm worthy. So there's a lot of layers here. So if I'm caring for others, then I'm worthy.
So we learn to tie our worth with caring for others and taking care of others. We also, there's a core belief that often shows up. There's a theme that runs, when I work with healers, the theme, one of the things is everyone else's needs matter, and my needs don't matter. So there's this core belief system deep down inside that says, "My needs don't matter everyone else's do. I'm responsible for everyone else." And that means their behaviors, their decisions, their emotions, their everything. And because my needs don't matter, well then I just won't have any. So we become needless wantless, call this needless wantless.
And so we grow up and that doesn't turn off. We find fields where we can do that, where we can take care of everyone else and not take care of ourselves, because our needs don't matter. So this is a core, and this is not just, I think this runs through families also. It's like an ancestral thing too. When we go back, we see that, "Oh, our mom was like that and their mom was like that or whatever." And here's the thing. We need nurses, doctors, therapists, we need healers. We need them. This is a very noble and beautiful and amazing way to show up in the world as helpers and healers.
The problem is that it becomes I take care of everyone else to the detriment of myself. And that's where the issue becomes, because that's where it becomes very unhealthy. And when I work with people, healers, and even through my own journey, when we can help ourselves first and heal ourselves first, and fill our own cup first, we have so much more to give. And we do it from a place of true compassion and true caring, not codependency, or Savior, or rescuer. Not that I have to do this because if I don't, I might die. Because literally when we go back to these child parts, it's like they have the realization that if I don't care for my mom or my siblings or myself, and feed myself, then I might die. So it literally goes all the way to survival.
So we have to get deep down in there and see, first of all, where did this start? We start unpacking and unraveling that so that we can do our healing and helping from a place of, again, true compassion and healthy giving versus this, "I'm going to give it the detriment of myself because I don't matter and my needs don't matter. So people can just run all over me and I'm just going to give all of myself and I'm going to get burned out too. And then the whole ship is going to go down." Does that make sense?
Beth Quaas:
Absolutely. That is incredible, because I think we do feel that way. We do have to take care of everybody. And the nurses out working on the floors and everywhere, "I have to stay past my shift to help everybody else. I have to come in on my day off to help everyone else."
Liz Burkholder:
Yes. Oh, I just got chills because I know that. And I've been there.
Beth Quaas:
Yes. We've been there.
Liz Burkholder:
I have to. I have to spend the night here. I have to come in when it's snowing, and 12 foot of snow on the ground because I'm the only one. It's my responsibility.
Beth Quaas:
Right. And I'm teaching my kids now. It's not your responsibility. If you're sick, you have no responsibility going into work. But I have to. No. No, you don't. You have to take care of yourself first so that you come back healthy to do your job.
Liz Burkholder:
Amen. I just said 12 foot of snow. I hope no one gets 12 feet of snow. I meant 12 inches. But anyway, I had to correct that.
Beth Quaas:
I hope not.
Liz Burkholder:
Some places may get 12 feet of snow. I don't know. Yeah. It's just this crazy phenomenon that it's so deep. We think it's just this, "Oh, but we're short of staff and I'm responsible." And it runs so deep. It's wired into our nervous system so deeply that we can't even say no, often. Right? We can't even get the word, "No" or, "No, I can't do that," out, because the nerve system is literally hurting. I mean, going through this myself, I've learned that when we're not used to setting boundaries or don't know how to set boundaries, when we try it physically hurts.
Our nervous system is like our heart's racing, and our chest is tightening, and we're sweating, and we can't get the words out, and the throat's closing up. It's like, "I can't even say no," or, "I have something else," or, "No, I just need to take care of myself." It's like our body is so locked in, it's so deep in our nervous system.
Beth Quaas:
Imagine coming in at 7:00 AM for your 12 hour shift, and you look at the schedule and you automatically know, there's no way I can go home at the end of my shift. I know they're going to come and ask me to stay. And so you've already been put on the defensive since the time you walked in the door. And it's just reality.
Liz Burkholder:
It is. And here's the thing. And so then the system reinforces that. And the system is made up of all of these traumatized people. So they're running the system. So then they're just driving it also. And they're like, "No, no, no. You don't get to say no. You have to stay. You have to take 10 patients. You have to take that extra admission. There's no one else." And I was just talking to a doctor the other day and she was saying it was the end of the day, and they tried to slide in another patient for her, and she had already been slammed the whole day and the whole eight minutes, well, as far as nurse practitioners, PAs, and doctors, they have eight minute visits. Eight minute, 10 minute, 15 minute visits. And it's boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, which is so crazy and unsustainable.
She said this one lady called her and said, "Can you take another patient towards the end of the day?" And she said, "No, I can't. I'm getting ready to leave and I have to pick my daughter up." And her manager called her into the office and said, "You don't get to say no. They asked you only as a courtesy." And it's like, "Oh my goodness, this is how the system is." So the system drives it and perpetuates it. And so literally you feel like, "I don't have a choice. I don't. I have to do this. This is the way it is."
And what's really sad to me is that so many people go into these fields because they truly, genuinely do care and have a lot of compassion. And I really want to help people also, in addition to the, "I have to do this because I have to do it, because I'm the only one and it's my responsibility." There truly is often a lot of care and compassion and want to help. And then we get in the fields and then we see that it's like this, and it's like, "Oh no, that's not how..." And then some people leave the field altogether, because they're like-
Beth Quaas:
Yes.
Liz Burkholder:
... "Oh, there's no way to actually do what I would really love to do in a healthy way where I can actually be healthy myself." So they just leave completely, which is really sad too. And this is why I want to offer a supportive place for people to heal through that so that they can create their spaces of healing from that place of being healed and taking care of themselves and giving from that compassionate, loving space in a healthy way. And whether that takes getting completely out of the system for a while or starting your own practice from ground up, people do it. I see it all the time. It can be done.
It's almost like you have to get out of it to shift it because it's just so big now. It's like this big monster. And there's this quote that I love, Buckminster Fuller, I think is his name that says, I'm going to probably get it a little bit wrong here, but it says, "You can't change the current system by focusing on the current system. In fighting the current system you have to focus on and build a new system that makes the other one obsolete." So it's almost like that. We almost just have to say, "Okay, that is what it is. And I'm just going to get out of that. And I'm going to start something new over here."
Beth Quaas:
Do you think that there's a way to incorporate some training into nursing education so that students come out and maybe a little prepared?
Liz Burkholder:
Oh man, I hope so. And I would love to be a part of that movement somehow. And I do think that we need to get into the nursing programs and we need to teach about self care. We need to talk about trauma healing of ourselves and talk about how we heal that part of us that feels like I have to do this and it's the only option. And again, healing that so that we can do it from this place of, "You know what? My needs matter, and I matter too. And I know that the more I take care of myself, the more I have to give." And it's done from a healthy place.
But again, it's so infiltrated in the systems that even the nursing programs are run by the people who perpetuate that. So it's like we have to get in from bottom up, from top down. I would love for nurses to start getting into the academic fields and shifting it there, and then into the hospitals and shifting it there, and getting into mental health and shifting it there, and getting into administration and shifting it there. I'm doing a PhD in mind body medicine right now, and I'm working with, I have some colleagues who are in the program with me, and some of them are in administration, so they're like, "We're going to hit it from top down."
And then there's some people that are like, "Okay, I'm going to come in from bottom up. I'm going to go work with the clients or clinicians." And then some are like, "We're going to start an administration." So there are people that are going into these places to make shifts. It's just, again, it's a big thing. It's a big deal.
Beth Quaas:
Well, and in all of my years in nursing, I would see administration would bring in a consulting company and they would, "Okay, here are the things we see that need to be done now. Develop a program or do this so you can help your staff." In whatever way they were bringing in. And it would seem to drop off as soon as they got the results. And we never saw the benefit of them bringing it in other than to say that they did it.
Liz Burkholder:
Oh, wow. Oh, that's so sad. But I know as the western world wakes up more to things like mindfulness and meditation and mind body medicine and things like that, we're making shifts. It's just kind of small. And I think it starts there. Here's the other thing, is I think sometimes administration and the systems want to put it all on the individual and say, "Well, it's your responsibility. You have to just take care of yourself." And this is true. We do need to take care of ourselves, of course. I mean, it does start there.
But also the system has to incorporate the support too, and the shifts and the changes within the system too. So they have to also take responsibility and say, "Yeah, while you need to take care of yourself and go do yoga, meditation, and your trauma healing, we also need to put in policies in place that say, "You don't need to work more than 40 hours," Or whatever that looks like. Or you don't need to take more than five patients on the floor, no matter what.
Beth Quaas:
Or we're going to offer you a safe environment to come to work in, because we know that is not happening. You walk in the door worried for what's going to happen with patients or family or your own safety.
Liz Burkholder:
Right. And speaking of that, there's another issue that happens is when nurses and doctors and therapists witness traumatic situations, they're expected to literally go right back to work and see the next patient. You have a patient die over here in this room, pass away or whatever, in the ER or on the floor or in the OR, and you're literally expected to just move right along to the next person. And there is no, nowhere I've worked, so far, and maybe they're changing this, hopefully, there's no policy in place for processing of that.
So then we're building trauma, upon trauma, upon trauma, and we wonder why everyone has PTSD. And actually so many clinicians are walking around with PTSD and don't even know it, because they just keep repressing and stacking trauma after trauma. And when you witness and see all of the trauma that happens in the healthcare field, and you just push it down and compartmentalize it, it doesn't just go away. It goes somewhere. And where it goes is it creates physical illness, it creates mental illness, it creates relationship issues, it creates all kinds of things, and nightmares, insomnia, panic attacks.
It doesn't just go away. That stuff needs to be processed. So there should be trauma informed therapists in the hospitals who sit with doctors and nurses after they experience a loss or a death or a trauma. That's not happening.
Beth Quaas:
There's always something else to do in my world, in the OR, in anesthesia. You got to get on to the next case. And I know that we tried to implement years ago, a debriefing after a death or a traumatic experience in the OR, and it just didn't get off the ground because either people were too busy or they had to come in on their day off. And so the intent was there, it just didn't develop into anything.
Liz Burkholder:
And I think part of that too is, again, the system, I mean, we all have to do it. What happens too, is the individual, the nurses, and doctors might think, "Well, I don't need that. I'm good. I'm good. I don't need that." So we don't even know that we need it. And then the therapist, or whoever's holding the debriefing, often the therapists, aren't even fully, in my opinion, properly trained to actually process trauma anyway. And they don't know what to do with it. They don't know how to even help people truly get into what's going on here, what's underneath the surface, what are the emotions under there?
They don't truly know how to do that, which is a whole nother thing too, that I would love to do is get into the therapy programs and teach all about shock and trauma and how we actually process emotions, and how we actually can get down beneath the surface, which we have to get into the subconscious mind. We can't just talk about it either. Talking just keeps us almost stuck in the loop and in the head. We need to get into the body and the emotions and to the subconscious. So there's a whole lot there too. It's just so multilayered.
Beth Quaas:
That is amazing information. And you're right, I think so many of us are walking around and we need help. We just either don't know how to ask for it, we don't want to ask for it. So I love your idea about getting into the schools, getting into the hospitals and clinics, that people are just too busy to seek help sometimes.
Liz Burkholder:
Right. It's such a mess. I mean, it's overwhelming to think about it. When I start going into it and thinking about it's like, "Gosh, it's so overwhelming." It just feels like, is there any help or hope there? Which I truly believe there is. I truly believe there's always hope. And I do see shifts happening. So I try to focus on that. I focus on that there are shifts happening and people are making the changes. And we are moving in a different direction, whether it's slow or not, even just steps create ripples. And those ripples exponentiate out into the world. And it does make the shift where eventually it seems like suddenly there's this big change, but it's been happening for a long time.
Beth Quaas:
I encourage people, if you truly cannot take one more day in whatever place you're working, it's okay to move on.
Liz Burkholder:
Yes.
Beth Quaas:
But with that, moving on, you need to heal yourself from what you went through.
Liz Burkholder:
Yes, yes. Oh, it's so important. Yes.
Beth Quaas:
I hate to see healthcare workers leave the profession, because we all know the time and energy that they put in to get where they are. But something has to give and they need to make themselves better and healthy.
Liz Burkholder:
Yes. And I hate to see that too. But I see a little shift happening there too, where people are, maybe they have left the field, nurses and, excuse me, therapists and doctors, but they're starting to see that, oh, they can do it differently. And often again, that does mean they have to kind of start their own business or their own practice and do it how they can do it in that way. But it's happening. And I do think that's another place where we need help is teaching people how to build heart based businesses. What I call heart based businesses or heart centered businesses, where we're living and working from the heart, not living and working from the head or from the trauma or from the drive and the Savior Complex, and the burnout and the workaholism and all the things, that the system is currently running from.
Beth Quaas:
If you work from the place that you're not all burnt out in, in your head coming from really you truly want to be. I love that.
Liz Burkholder:
How much change can I create doing that? Right.
Beth Quaas:
Absolutely. Tell us what else you're doing and where you see yourself going now.
Liz Burkholder:
So right now I am finishing up, I'm working on this PhD in mind body medicine. So I'm in my dissertation phase. And so hopefully within around about a year, I'll be maybe done with that. But in order to complete that, I'm having to pull back on some work so that I keep my own work life balance and make sure I'm not burning myself out. So I am pulling back on my private practice right now and seeing one on one clients. I'm going to be doing more groups in 2023. So I have a couple of programs. I have one coming up, it's Inner Child Healing. It's a six week class where we meet every week on Zoom, and we're doing a lot of inner child work together, doing hypnotherapy, breath work, journaling, meditation and sharing, lots of different things there to help. It's kind of like a beginners class in inner child work and trauma healing.
And then in January, I have a program starting. It's a three month intensive program, Heal Your Life. No, sorry, Heal Yourself. I have a couple different ones. Heal Yourself. It's a three month intensive program. And it includes group work and individual sessions. And then I have a group specifically for healers and those clinicians. That starts in February and it's Heal the Healers. It's called Living and Working From the Heart. And it's a program for burned out clinicians. And it's a six month program to really just help burned out clinicians to heal. Heal through the work trauma, the medical field trauma, whatever happened there, and then childhood trauma, healing the nervous system, healing the codependency and healing the self neglect, like all of those things. A six month intensive program to really just help healers heal. So that starts in February.
Beth Quaas:
That is going to fill up quickly. I have no doubt.
Liz Burkholder:
I hope so. I'm calling them in.
Beth Quaas:
Absolutely. We all know people that want the help, they just don't know where to go sometimes.
Liz Burkholder:
They don't know. And they don't even sometimes know what they need. They just know I need something and what I'm doing is not working.
Beth Quaas:
Right.
Liz Burkholder:
So I open my arms to anyone listening who feels like, "You know what? That sounds like something I might need." Please reach out. I would love to do a discovery call or a consultation call on the phone just to talk or whatever. I would just love to be here to support.
Beth Quaas:
I love that. And they can find all of your contact information in our show notes. So please find Liz and see what she can do for you. So what is something amazing that you would like to share with nurses?
Liz Burkholder:
One of the things recently that I've heard several people talk about is, so there's a lot of strategies out there. We're inundated with so many strategies and programs and steps, and here's the steps and here's the strategies. And we're just almost overwhelmed with information these days. What I say is, "There's one step. There's one turn, and that's inward. Go inward. Close your eyes. Drop into your heart. Drop into your soul. Whatever you call that. And go from that place. Listen to that place, because that's where your truth is."
Beth Quaas:
That's fantastic.
Liz Burkholder:
So that's what I would say. Follow that. Follow the heart. Follow the heart. That's what I would say. Close your eyes. Drop into your heart. Follow it. Follow your heart.
Beth Quaas:
I think anybody that's listening, as long as you're not driving, as soon as this ends, stop and do that, and then go from there. I love that. Take that one step.
Liz Burkholder:
That one turn inward.
Beth Quaas:
Yes. I love that.
Liz Burkholder:
All the answers are there. Everything is there.
Beth Quaas:
Liz, I so appreciate everything that you've shared today. I think it's amazing. I'm so excited for what you're offering people and that you're coming at it from kind of a different way that isn't just traditional, what we think of when we think about mental health.
Liz Burkholder:
Thank you. I'm honored to be on the journey. I'm honored to be here. And I'm grateful to give back and to help people, and just help our profession and anyone else heal.
Beth Quaas:
Thank you so much, Liz. I appreciate you being here.
Liz Burkholder:
Thank you. Thank you, Beth. Oh my goodness. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you.
Speaker 4:
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Intro/Outro:
Don't Eat Your Young was produced in partnership with True Story FM. Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music by the Light Hearts. Find the show notes, show notes, and transcripts at donteatyouryoung.com. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show. But the best thing you could do to support the show is to share it with a friend or colleague. Thank you for listening.
