Learning to Protect Yourself with Maggie Ortiz
Maggie Ortiz
In today’s episode, nurse advocate Maggie Ortiz joins your host Beth Quaas to talk about the challenges in our nursing system today. Why is it so frustratingly complicated and why does it seem to be working against the nurses in it? What can nurses do to protect themselves? How do they deal with liability? Do they need their own insurance? There’s a lot of information in today’s episode so make sure you tune in to this one!
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About Maggie
I have been a critical care nurse for 22 years. I started in the ICU, step down, telemetry moved to the ER and started doing local agency work which included Interventional Radiology to do procedural sedation and I enjoyed doing that type of work. From there I started working PACU and Pre-Op, Pre-Assessment testing nurse, surgery centers and once I moved to San Antonio Texas from Omaha received a security clearance and worked at Lackland Air Force Base in the Level I trauma center during the war and then moved over to Brook Army Center in the Level I Trauma Center ICU. Moved to Austin working pretty much all their hospitals to include their Level I ICU working in the float pool and again doing local agency. Helped open a free-standing ER and then soon took a job at the Texas Board of Nursing as an Investigator. Stayed for about 6 months couldn’t take the lack of due process being extended to nurses left went to the cath lab where I have worked primarily now for the last 8 years. I started doing some grassroots activist work while I finished my bachelors and went onto get my Master’s in leadership and Administration which I have opted never to use, and I’ve stayed at the bedside with my people.
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Intro/Outro:
Welcome to Don't Eat Your Young, a nursing podcast with your host, Beth Quaas. Before we get started, we have a few quick notes. Don't Eat Your Young is a listener supported podcast. To learn more about becoming a member and the perks available to you for becoming a patron yourself. Visit patreon.com/donteatyouryoung. You can learn more about the show, share your story to join Beth as a guest, or connect with our wonderful community in our Facebook group. You can find all those links and more at donteatyouryoung.com. And now on with the show.
Beth Quaas:
Today, I'm excited to have Maggie Ortiz on the show. She has a Facebook group called Advocates for Nurses. She's been a nurse for 22 years. She's worked in many areas throughout the hospital. She received her master's degree in leadership in 2019. And she's also been an expert witness for legal cases. Today, we're going to talk about the legality of nursing and understanding your license. Thanks to Maggie for being here today. How are you today, Maggie?
Maggie Ortiz:
Well. Thank you. How are you?
Beth Quaas:
I am fantastic. Thanks for being a guest on the show. Why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself?
Maggie Ortiz:
So I've been a nurse for 22 years, spent the majority of my career in the intensive care unit's level one trauma, went to the ER, moved on to do local agency, doing interventional radiology, interventional cardiology, preop, PACU, endoscopy, interventional radiology, surgery centers, freestanding ERs. Then I moved on to the Board of Nursing in Texas, I was an investigator there, left there after a short period of time, and then moved on. I Started doing some activist work, and then became an expert witness for medical malpractice, which is civil law. And then as well, expert witness for administrative law, which is what our license falls under, and or anyone's license falls under. So doing a lot of activist work currently.
Beth Quaas:
Which is exactly what we need. And I'm glad to have you on the show for that very reason. What spurred you to move on and get your master's degree in leadership?
Maggie Ortiz:
I was tired of being told no, because I thought I would want to move up at the time. I only had, I said only, had an associate's degree. And then just the Institute of Medicine in 2011, put out that all nurses should have advanced degrees. So I felt like they placed restrictions on any movement unless you had your bachelor's [inaudible 00:02:56]. If I was going to go back to school, I was going to go, just get my master's.
Beth Quaas:
That is fantastic. And I, too, started out just as an associate degree nurse. They were fantastic programs, and those nurses are spectacular as well. I applaud you for going on because I do agree, we don't get to sit at the tables, unfortunately, unless we move on in our education. So tell me, how did you get into the Board of nursing, and what did that look like to you?
Maggie Ortiz:
So I was working at a freestanding ER, and they started messing with my schedule, and [inaudible 00:03:31], and healthcare. So I started looking for other employment. There was a position posted for a nurse investigator. I believe two for the Board of Nursing. I met the qualifications just as a nurse. That's pretty much the qualifications. I applied on through what I felt was a pretty rigorous interview because they do have to know that you're going to be able to basically sanction your own so that has to come out during the interview. They're real clear about that. So it is a bit of a rigorous interview.
Got the job. Not long after being there. I was told they're all guilty. Don't read their response. Felt like they were not extending nurses, mitigating, what I now know to be mitigating circumstances to include subpoenaing different records, maybe speaking to another nurse, maybe looking at a system problem, maybe determining whether this was retaliation, that stuff wasn't happening. Criminal investigators investigating practice cases, the Director Enforcement not being a nurse, which prior to him being in that position, wasn't RN, JD.
But just the culture was oppressive against our people. And I had just come from the front lines, and I was like, "Wait, hold on. We have acuity skills that we should be looking at. I want to know staffing." There are so many other things that anyone who's practicing or has practiced at the bedside knows that those should really be put into place. And it wasn't.
Beth Quaas:
So let me get this straight. The bodies that give us our licenses are treating us as though we are not them, and we are them. But it sounds like we're not getting a fair shake when it comes to looking at our practice or license. So that is astonishing. And I want to hear more about that.
Maggie Ortiz:
Yes, every nurse should be disgusted and concerned, because on my investigative process, when I left the Board after six months, because I couldn't be a part of it. I just couldn't stomach it. I even went over to the consulting side because there are different parts of the Board of Nursing. So I went over to the consulting side, left thinking I could just transfer within the Board. I could stay there, but just go to a different department. But because I did not have a master's degree, I didn't qualify for that. So I couldn't stay.
And I can tell you, it was very well known that's the culture of the Board within the organization. When I went to speak to the consultant, I mean, I can't quote you the exact conversation, but again, it was just known. My office mate and I discussed it, it was well known amongst other people within the Board. It just was very oppressive. So I left and came back out and started speaking out a little bit, concerned obviously, because it is an entity that we should be afraid of. And they just started moving on with doing some activist work.
Beth Quaas:
And how many years ago was that?
Maggie Ortiz:
2015 I left.
Beth Quaas:
Okay. So it's been a few years. Do you think anything has changed because of your work today?
Maggie Ortiz:
Maybe, yes and no. I can tell you what I've done, but nurses still reach out to me. I now help nurses under investigation. I'm a nurse advocate. I use the Nurse Practice Act, and or the NPA, which I'm qualified to do, and help nurses through the Board of Nursing process. Do I think that things have changed? So in my own state, what have I done? I use an activist to do Freedom of Information Act, so FOIA.
I had her help me go to the Board of Nursing and start asking them questions. Then, a representative for the state of Texas called in the Executive Director of my understanding. And again, it started opening up some conversation about a nurse doesn't have a way to complain if there is retaliation, or they're not feel like they're getting a fair shake. So then the Board of Nursing then had to create a process. So now if you go to the Texas Board of Nursing, if you go to avow, there is a way to make a complaint about the nursing board to the nursing board, but their lead council investigates that, clearly not fair, but that is a process that they did have to put into place in Texas.
Beth Quaas:
Who oversees the Boards of Nursing?
Maggie Ortiz:
No one, in most states. And again that on my journey, I have found so 2015 to date, I currently do activist work. And part of that is finding out the structure of every state to figure out who we fall under. States like California, they do fall under the AG, the Attorney General and or the governor. But just think about this, so even if you do fall under the AG, so then now the Board of Nursing, you go to trial, now the Board of Nursing's at trial. So who does the AG represent, that entity and not you, right? So that is a conflict of interest.
Beth Quaas:
If people don't find this alarming, that's even more alarming because this is information I did not know. And with everything that's going on in nursing right now, and I know we can talk about the big trial that's going on and how that's going to affect us. People need to become aware of what could happen to their license. And tell me if I'm wrong. I've been on the management side of a root cause analysis for a sentinel event. The first question that the nurse involved was asked was, "What could you have done to prevent this?" And so it puts the onus on the nurse and takes it off of the system.
Maggie Ortiz:
Pretty common in my understanding how they treat us as scapegoats, right? I mean, and again, I've seen this time and time again. You and I have stood the bedside. We are not the money makers, right? As you are now, because you're a CRNA, I am not, right? When I clock into the bedside nurse I'm actually the revenue for that organization. Now that shouldn't be how it is, right? Because if I was able to bill for my services, like you can, the physician can, PT can, then maybe it would be reflected differently, but that's how they scapegoat us.
Beth Quaas:
And you cannot run a hospital without nurses. Yet, I would say you can't be billed for your services, but you can be liable for your services. So how does that work?
Maggie Ortiz:
Right. And I wrote, actually an article on LinkedIn because NPR, National Public Radio puts out like, "You can submit your ridiculous hospital bill and we'll look at it." Someone submitted it for an IV injection, which you know a nurse gave. They were billing $722 and some change. So I just did, I simplified it.
I did $700 and I did the math out for one nurse giving one injection every 12 hours, which if I'm working sedation, and I did the math, and then I did that times a year, 52 weeks, and I did that for the organization and what they're getting, the disparity. And then I broke it down into, and I just Googled what is the average pay of an RN, which was $32. And then I did an extreme, I did $45. And again, did that out to a year. The disparity in what the facility collects on a nurse giving injection was millions of dollars. Millions.
Beth Quaas:
That is incredible. I'm so glad you broke that down for people. We are in a crazy state right now in our profession. And I think there's going to be a lot of changes. When we look at the Vaught case and the criminal charges brought against her, I don't want to discuss what she did or didn't do. We've all been there. If you're a nurse and you say you haven't made a medication error, you have not been in nursing long enough. We've all done it. We may do it again. We are human. I appreciate that. But what is this going to do to our profession, if criminal charges are going to be brought against nurses for things like medication errors?
Maggie Ortiz:
Getting in the details. I don't think any nurse is defending our conduct. We're talking about it rising to the level of criminal. Administratively, I think we can all agree, but on a criminal, there's no intent. And I think that those charges, because again, medication errors are one of the leading causes of death. And who give those medication, we just talked about that. Nurse ado that was set precedent. This is a nurse who did not have intent.
We're not talking about Nurse Ratched who went in and was trying to harm a patient, right? Again, don't put her in that same group. That's not fair. She had no intent. And there were other things in place. I think that it will, again, in the crisis that we're having already with nursing that we don't even know. By 2030, they're already projecting that there will be a five million deficit of us across the nation. 2030, that's not that long away from now, right? And again now, due to COVID, due to the Boards of Nursing, due to nurses potentially now not only being held criminally, civilly, and administratively, why would you become a nurse? That's a huge deterrent.
Beth Quaas:
And on top of that, the cost of education is so high. It takes years to pay off those loans, if you have to take loans. Consumers of healthcare listen up. This is going to affect you. That's what it comes down to. And as nurses, we need to let the public know this is going to affect your care. You better bring a family member into the hospital with you. You may not have anyone else to help you.
This isn't a scare tactic. This is the reality. Like you said, we aren't going to have enough nurses. We have enough delivering care now, not that there aren't nurses out there. Hospitals aren't employing the numbers that I believe that we need for safe care for both the patient and the nurse.
Maggie Ortiz:
Right. And this is just going to create more silence because do you know one of the first things she did? She immediately took that drug to the nurse saying, "I have to waste it." That tells me, she thought it was a controlled substance. When he brought it to her attention that it was Vec, what did she do immediately? She went into that room, which is hard to do, said, "This is what happened," owned it so that they can immediately take the corrective measures to at least try to do the right thing, right? She stood in front of her people and owned it, right?
So now you remove that silence? You know what's going to happen? Patients will be harm. And you and I know this, this is well spoken about in our community. You cannot create that silence, because again, people will not speak up about medication errors that they know that they're going to be criminally held liable.
Beth Quaas:
Right? I've talked to a lot of nurses that I know, and it's a very scary time. And I don't work at the bedside anymore. I work in the operating room, and I have to carry malpractice insurance. What are nurses doing these days for their liability and ensuring, you've already said that the attorneys for the Board of Nursing are not there for the nurse, so what are they doing to protect themselves?
Maggie Ortiz:
The majority of nurses that I know on the bedside, do not have malpractice insurance. And I believe that in our own, that's been a demise to ourselves, right? If you ask nurses, and I have, "Why don't you have malpractice insurance?" "Because I was told they'll go after me." "Who told you this?"
Now, and again, who are you telling? On no application are they asking, "Do you have malpractice insurance?" Because think about this, if you are at a hospital and something happens, and I'm an expert witness, and I've testified, and I've seen the nurse at trial where it's the hospital, the physician and the nurse, all being sued civilly. So do you think that the hospital has the nurse's best interest at heart? No. So if you had malpractice insurance, which, and again, roughly $50, $60 a year, it's like car insurance. If you never need it, that's great. But it will cover you for administrative lawyer and for medical malpractice lawyer, which are different.
So if you do get investigated by the Board, then you'll be able to get a lawyer because I've heard lawyers say from their lips to my ears, "I will not pick up," usually it's a basic RN because they don't have malpractice insurance, "Because they can't afford me, because they don't have malpractice insurance." And a lot of nurses have no idea the expense. If they want to go all the way to a trial, it could be a $100,000. And now imagine you're an LVN, and you don't make as much as an RN, or even if you're RN, you're the sole provider for your family. Can you pocket that much money? Because you know how much the lawyer wants up front? A lot of money.
Beth Quaas:
Can you talk generally without specifics about some of the cases that you've been an expert witness on so that we all have an idea of it could be us?
Maggie Ortiz:
Sure. So I can tell you administratively and civilly. Administratively, the last two nurses that I helped. During the snowstorm in Texas, the grid went down. Not a mystery to anyone, right? We all heard about this. There was an assisted living facility that was kept on rolling blackouts. A patient died in that facility. It's assisted living. That practice is different. Even at the point where I reached out to an expert, because I don't do that kind of nursing. It's very specific and it's very regulated, but it's assisted living. So it's their homes, which I found out after I did some work.
A patient died in the facility. One of the LVNs was not even on site. The other LVN, EMS was there. She reported to the paramedic, which is a higher level of care to an LVN, demanded that he take that client went to the hospital, that patient died.
It was not due to anything that she did wrong. They still sanctioned both of their license. We reached out to the governor, we reached out to representatives. Who are they going to tell? They both went to a mediation and the Board still sanctioned their license. They signed their orders. They didn't want to go to their LVNs. If they were to go onto that, they would have to get lawyers and they chose not to get lawyers and spend upwards of hundreds of thousands of dollars.
And let me just end that with, when you go to a trial as a nurse, they do not have to listen to the judge. Let me repeat that. So you spent all that money. This is two to three years of your life emotionally, right? Not only that, fist financially. You get to that point where you go all the way through the trial. The judge says X, Y, Z, the Board says, "Okay, thanks. Great, sir. Appreciate it." The Board still gets the final say. Most nurses have no idea that is how that works.
Beth Quaas:
If people could see my face right now, my jaw just dropped at that statement. The Board can make a decision that has nothing to do with the court system's ruling. Is that correct?
Maggie Ortiz:
Yes. And then once you're under investigation, they will go back until you're 18. So they go fishing, which I was taught to do. And if that meant I needed to get on Microfiche to look you up, then that's what I did.
Beth Quaas:
I have no words. I am at a loss.
Maggie Ortiz:
That's not due process. That's not a nurse's constitutional right. And that's what I scream about.
Beth Quaas:
I'm thoroughly astonished by everything I'm learning from you today. So it's not all dooms day. Let's talk about what nurses can do now to protect themselves. Because of course, when you're a nurse, you love nursing, you love taking care of patients. And this is not to scare people away from doing the job they love, but it's to help them understand and educate themselves and protect themselves. So let's talk a little bit about that. Where can people start to educate themselves?
Maggie Ortiz:
Start with your Board of Nursing. Understand what the Nurse Practice Act is. Understand that you have your own license. You do not work for a physician. You do not work for anyone else. That's why I think nurses get in trouble. You use your chain of command. If you don't know what chain of command is, your hospital has a policy. I have testified to this, both in administrative and civil cases. It is your duty to understand what the chain of command is.
So that means that in Texas, you have to lay your body over the patient. That's what you have to do. 1514 in this state says, "That I have a duty to the patient that supersedes an organization and or a physician's order." So that using the chain of command, standing up, you just got to stand up and you have to demand. You have to use things like rapid response, call the code.
If you recognize that the patient is deteriorating, start moving, get the charge nurse involved, call a rapid response. You don't care about what other people are going to say, right? Your duty is to the patient, and you just remember that, right? We have to check our egos at the door. Document. If something happened, quote it. Because again, someone just literally reached out to me before this podcast. She's being called. She was an ER nurse in triage for a same case five years ago. The hospital is not representing her. The hospital, of course, let the physician know that this case was going on, did not let her know. The DA she got a subpoena from and the facility didn't even let her know. That's unacceptable, right? That's not okay. So the only thing that's going to protect her right now is going to be what she documented.
Now I do believe that she will just be a fact witness, but I don't know that. The organization told her, "Go ahead and just open up the chart and look at it." I said, "Absolutely not. Do not open up that chart until you're sitting with legal, until general counsel for the hospital sitting there with you. You do not open up that patient's chart. Absolutely not. And when you do go into that chart, you will make a note saying that you received a subpoena and, or this date and time. And that is your reason for, and you're reviewing the chart with legal. What was your name, sir?" Lawyer, whatever facility you're at and that you're working with them and you're going over the chart. And that's why you have opened up that chart. Because when they go back and look at the IT stamped, it will be noted you opened up that patient's chart on that day and time.
You got to have a document in there while you were in there. And that's any time you access a patient's chart. You need to be either the primary care provider and, or you need to be, "Why am I in here?" When I do a callback for a patient and I'm in a unit when I float around, and they don't have a process in place, you can be for sure, I open up a general note. Call back made for endoscopy or PACU. And then whatever I ask, "No nausea, vomiting," whatever it is. But anytime you open up a patient's chart, and you are not the primary caregiver, you better write in there why you opened that up because again, two or three years from now, do you think you're going to remember that? Absolutely not.
Beth Quaas:
I know a few people that have been terminated for going into charts that they did not have business going into. And some were well respected providers that had nothing but the best interest, but they went into a chart they shouldn't have been in, and they were walked out the door.
Maggie Ortiz:
I agree. This happened within the last year. An ER nurse was assigned a patient. She went ahead and looked at the patient, oh, I'm sorry. The ER patient was admitted, the ER patient was going to be admitted. The ICU nurse opened up the chart because she was assigned that patient, that patient got changed to a different status, she got terminated as well for opening up that patient chart, even though she was just trying to get ahead of the game. Read up on some [inaudible 00:23:39] labs and they did terminate her.
Beth Quaas:
And we've all done. We've all opened charts because we thought that patient was coming to us and something changed. And that could happen to anyone of us.
Maggie Ortiz:
Getting malpractice insurance, I think is a great idea. I have no vested interest in any of them. I personally have NSO. I use them because I testify, and because I'm a practicing nurse. They walk you through just like they would with car, medical, house insurance, what you need, right? It's just like any other insurance. And again, is it an expense? Sure, it is. But you can sure write that off as a nurse. And again, it's just like anything else. Hope you don't need it.
Beth Quaas:
An hour of two of work per month is going to pay for, or did you say a year?
Maggie Ortiz:
I believe it is a year. I want to say mine is maybe 100, maybe 120, but I have different things on mine because I testify, which I don't think is for that kind of protection. I'll write that off.
Beth Quaas:
Sure.
Maggie Ortiz:
So Safe Harbor. If you're in Texas, that's something that you can do. Safe Harbor. If you come to work, say you're assigned eight patients and you should only have four. You can say before you take report, "I'm filing Safe Harbor," which you can say verbally in this state and you fill out a form. Usually that enacts a big deal, the CNO gets involved, right?
But then if something happens to that patient, you have filed Safe Harbor, which states I did the best that I could, and you're not liable. That is present, and they call it something else, I think, in two other states, but not all states have this. So speaking to your nursing association, speaking to the ANA, American Nursing and Association, talking to your representatives, because that should be something that every state has, using again, the chain of command, and then making sure that you're documenting things as you can.
And then jurisprudence is something that I encourage all nurses to do. It is something that is required for a nurse in Texas for initial licensure and then every third cycle for us. Not every state requires it, but they require it for nurses and physicians in this state. Jurisprudence is merely education as it applies to your license. It's CEUs. You could take it as your CEUs. It's not free, but I think it is great education. Getting involved in policy in your state, because we should all have a seat at the table. If you're interested in it, start pursuing it. We have to have a voice.
There are nurses who hold office in every state, reach out to them. Talk to them. Ask them if they know what the process is. Understand your own process in your own state. Who do I fall under? If you look your license up and it goes right to the Attorney General, pretty obvious that's who you fall under. If it doesn't, then you probably don't have any oversight and need to do some more digging.
Beth Quaas:
I'm glad we're here. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're telling us these things. So we need people to go out and educate themselves. Understand your state's Board of Nursing. So now let's talk about travel nursing because that is of course growing huge, and you are licensed in states, but you probably don't understand everything within that state. So can you talk about that a little bit?
Maggie Ortiz:
Again, I would make sure, especially the travel nurse that you do have malpractice insurance. You going and floating to different places, you should have that kind of protection. If you have a compact license, that means that pretty much all the states recognize the same thing. So the Nurse Practice Acts are all recognized in all those states. So if you understand your state, then you're pretty much covered. So if you go to your state, just review some of the rules and regulations as it applies to you.
It can be a big animal taking jurisprudence or even just reviewing some of that literature. If you don't want to take the class, there's plenty of stuff out there. Lolly Lockhart wrote that material. She's an amazing nurse. She's one of my mentors. She has great material out there. Just start reviewing that. But the more that you know and understand about your license, will protect you. So as a travel nurse, you should absolutely know that.
Beth Quaas:
Where I'm at in Minnesota, we are not a compact state. So if you're coming here or you're working here, make sure you understand what's happening in this state as well.
Maggie Ortiz:
Right. And so you would have to actually apply for a license in your state unless you're under emergency, which I don't know if your state has allowed for emergency nurses to practice during the pandemic, which is a possibility. That's what FEMA nurses do, right? So yes, nurses travel for sure should have liability, and then understand who they're working for. Do you know is there a director of a nursing?
So if something happens and you're on a job, who are you going to reach out to? Because it's not going to be a facility, right? This has happened to me. I've been a traveler. I've left facilities because it wasn't safe. And again, the first thing I did is reach out to the Director of Nursing. They have a process in place. Do not work with an organization that does not have a Director of Nursing in place.
Beth Quaas:
Oh, good information. Well, I will say that there's been a lot of heavy content in this podcast. And it may leave people thinking, "Oh my gosh, I can't do this." But what it has done is open and our eyes, and our ears, and our minds to a lot of information we didn't know before. And so now we all have due diligence in what we need to do next, educate ourselves and take action to protect ourselves. Maggie, talk to us a little bit about Advocates for Nurses, where people can find you, and what you're on right now.
Maggie Ortiz:
So I have a Facebook group, that's Advocates for Nurses. I have a LinkedIn page, you can come find me at. I'm on Twitter, Advocates for Nurses. Always doing stuff. So working with a couple organizations. Hope to have enough for profit so I can start making change for us because I do want to have a seat at congressional table. I do want oversight for every Board of Nursing. I do want us to have a due process. I don't know exactly what that looks like at this moment, but in my own state, I was able to put into place at least a way to make a complaint about the nursing board to the nursing board. I've written a bill for an Ombudsman, which is a third party entity. And I'm back at the table, was at a healthcare advisory committee with a congressman in my state.
And I got to lead that discussion finally after two years. And again, I want that revisited about the Board of Nursing and what I see. I've written up due process clauses that are resolutions, that I want put into place, that are very reasonable, and that I want the Board of Nursing process looked at. I want, God, it's very specific things. I think the head of enforcement across the nation should always be an RN, JD. I think that we all need to have someone at the table in every state and that has to be a practicing nurse. It can't be Sheila, the bedside 100 years ago. It has to be someone who's relevant.
So I want real change for us. And again, I have big ideas, and I am working on stuff in my own state. I am working with other organizations to, the National Nursing Advocacy Alliance, which are links too on my Facebook page and my Twitter, my LinkedIn. They're working [inaudible 00:31:25] out of Arizona, but lately on a phone call with a representative nurse in their state. So hopefully making some change. So I'm going to be tackling every state.
Beth Quaas:
I appreciate all of the work that you're doing for all of us, because you are taking on a huge amount, an uphill battle is where you're at, but I hope that you can get more backing as people hear about you. You are a true advocate for nurses. And I appreciate that. And I so appreciate you coming on the show to be a guest. And I can see that we probably are going to have you back so we can get an update on everything you're working on.
Maggie Ortiz:
Absolutely. And I do have a Maggie hotline. I'm more than happy to give that. It's a Google. So I turn off my phone if I can't answer it. But that's (512) 766-8945.
Beth Quaas:
We'll make sure that's in the show notes as well. So people can find you if they didn't get it here. Thank you for all of your hard work.
Maggie Ortiz:
Thank you.
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